In the case of electrical work, I suspect it is largely driven by the Electrical Trades Union and supine government. But these days they have you by the short and curlies anyway since, if there is a fire for example, and uncertified electrical work is identified, whether or not it is the cause of the conflagration, your insurance company may well be disinclined to pay up.
However, any electrical modifications and/or additions I’ve had done over the last couple of decades have been done by my local sparky and the certificates carefully filed away. But if the house burns down they will disappear and I don’t know whether the electrician keeps a copy.
Having said all that, I am quite relaxed about replacing GPOs and light fittings etc myself.
I’m both a licenced electrician and an electrical engineer. The irony in my early days was that I could design electrical systems that conformed with the standards, but I was unable to change a power point in my house. So I did a bridging course and got a licence, though Ive never used it for commercail gain
However I am of the opinion, that simple work such as CHANGING a switch , power point of light fitting should be permissible for lay people. The risk is not great.
The contrary is not supported when you can go into Bunnings and buy these fittings without any questions.
I think several of you are actually trying to make this more about the Trades, and implying that because they are licensed they are bound to be better. That is not the topic of the thread. As we all know, the Trades don’t need additional work, in fact many are hard pressed to find one. Nobody is suggesting taking over their bread and butter role.
The thread is actually about less restrictions on DIY, as is commonplace in many other countries. Treating adults as adults instead of morons.
The example I gave of a ceiling fan indicates how crazy the Australian situation is. Anyone can buy a ceiling fan, but they can’t install it, replace a faulty one on warranty, and reinstall it. That expense is all incurred by the purchaser, the manufacturer sells a faulty product and is only liable for its manufactured cost, yet the installation is the major cost. This all for a product that its assembly is made idiot proof! The only risk is using a tester properly, switching the mains off and connecting 3 colour coded wires, from an existing light globe!
It is something that ought to taught in senior high schools, if not already, when doing electrical experiments. Every kid should know the basics.
I can go (and have done so) into a plumbing supply store and purchase fittings that must be installed by a plumber. No questions asked. I am able to see fittings I like and purchase them, I then get a qualified person to install them.
Bunnings offer this convenience to allow non qualified people to purchase the fittings they want or need. They do advise that some fittings are not to be installed by unqualified people, up to the person purchasing if they comply or not. I have purchased meters (fronius smart meters) from an electrical supply business that are for our mainboard with no questions. I have purchased LAN cable, no one queries if I am laying cable in a house or if I am making patch cables. So sometimes for certain work no qualifications are required, yet with the same product used in a different settings requires licencing.
So basically, ability to purchase goods does not mean that all goods in all circumstances are approved for personal installation (unless appropriate licences are held).
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And that is the problem in that not everyone is au fait with the equipment or how to use it. Proof is by demonstrating that ability and getting some certification (licence or certificate or similar) to show that ability. If someone wants to fit it here in Australia then they need to get proof they can, if not employ someone who has the proof. If the employed person fails to carry out the task properly the purchaser of the service have the protections of trade licencing, building approval bodies e.g. QBCC, and the ACL to fall back on. Not everything works all the time, and I have a great deal of sympathy for when it doesn’t. That doesn’t mean it isn’t appropriate.
As to training everyone in school how to carry out these tasks. Sure, all for it, just that it might extend school attendance by at least a year and what of those who do not attend or who do not get the principles taught how do we certify that they have the skills. If we want to allow non trained people to do some tasks (and we do for very limited lists of things), then we need to expect if those lists are expanded we may face increased insurance costs for one as the additional risk is shared through the premiums, we may have increased inspection costs to ensure when we move in to a property or sell it that it is safe and all work has been carried out in compliance with the required conditions.
Or does this mean each time people will ask for greater independence of choice and we move more to Laizzez-faire and greater risk on the purchaser.
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I am trying to keep your desire not to employ an electrician as a separate topic to the broader one of whether qualified trades always do good work and what to do about it. I think everybody would see that the answer to incompetent trades is not to abolish trade certification - that would make things worse.
I can go with less restriction as I have already said. What I can’t go with is no restriction in areas that have high risk. We need to discriminate.
I know too many adults that I would not trust to open a can of beans much less rewire a ceiling fan. Some people cannot use tools and will not learn.
Taking your example of replacing the fan, the wires may be colour coded but there are still mistakes to be made, the obvious being to not enclose the bare wiring in its terminal properly and not tightening the screw up properly, the result is live wires that can come loose or contact things they ought not. Then there is the problem that the colour codes changed; red->brown, black->blue, green->green/yellow. If you have old wires and don’t know that you may be lost. Then there is the problem of stripping wire correctly, removing the insulation just where it ought to be removed and no damage anywhere else. You may think nobody could be so stupid to not know these things; I don’t agree. You can have less restriction but not none.
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While I don’t disagree with this, it also assumes that everyone has the same level of capability and competency. Unfortunately this isn’t the case, and requirements associated with doing electrical works is about protecting those who can’t protect themselves. While the bar could be lowered so that any DIY can do some electrical work, who is to judge whether such DIYers have the capability or competency. Unfortunately it will be the DIYers making a judgement call and then we will have electrical works being done by those who shouldn’t. Hence, regulations to protect those who can’t protect themselves.
If we accept any DIYer can carry out electrical work, then we need as a society to accept or at least be aware of the risks/outcome of such approaches. That being higher rates of electrocution and electric shocks. In an extremely risk adverse Australia, this unlikely to happen without a significant change in social values. This change being the right for a DIYer to carry out electrical works means more than the occasional death or injury.
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Your assumption my statement isn’t correct. Based on your description the inference is every DIY person has the same interest the same level of skill and understanding of every aspect of DIY. If your interest is Woodwork, does that make you a great welder, of course not. But we can all make a total botch up of both woodwork and welding, that could lead to very poor outcomes; does that mean that both activities should only be performed by licensed carpenters and welders?
As I indicated above, for electrical work who is to access whether they are capable or competent enough to do the work. It will be the DIYer and many will think they have the capability and competency to do the work, when they don’t. Confirmation they don’t have the necessary capability or competency will be when they become a statistic as mains electricity is unforgiving. One simple mistake can easily lead to death or a permanent injury.
Your examples about welding or woodwork are different. These are more forgiving when mistakes are made. Where situations arise when they are less forgiving, such as in building works or structural welding on a road going vehicle, there are existing regulations which protect those who can’t protect themselves.
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An alternate point of view is the bar does not need to be lowered so far that anyone can.
The unanswered question is does the bar need to be set so high that even basic tasks require the highest level of training across 4 years or more supervised experience?
A reasonable proposition is the more basic tasks can be carried out safely with just a few skills. What we do not have is an industry or regulators prepared to look to the broader question. What work can be accommodated and what level of training and assessment should be provided.
I don’t expect any argument for change to succeed based on zero controls.
However the current responses against change accept no middle ground. Although even the industry does occupationally with restricted electrical licencing.
As a consumer the simpler but longer pathway may be to change how replaceable fixtures are supplied. Consumers could demand that they all come with a standards approved compact plug connector. This would eliminate a significant cause of concern. To note depending on supplier LED down lights come already fitted out with a 2 or 3 pin standard plug. A unknown depending on the original electrical installers choice to use a 413 or equivalent socket or simply cut the 3 pin plug and it is hard wired via a J-box. Many home owners will come to learn a failed LED down lights energy savings are soon gone with the call-out and time based cost to replace. For other types of fittings a more compact connector is required, noting unlike the standard 3 pin plug which is intended for regular use, the alternative is protected/concealed and undisturbed hence favouring a more compact choice.
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I’m not against some relaxing of the rules. I think we all then have the accept a greater risk, a greater responsibility for our actions, likely a greater cost financially as insurers include the greater risk, a possible need for regular checks to ensure safe work, and a greater risk of possible faults and injury.
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You’re talking about Tradies. The OP is talking about people in their own homes being allowed to do DIY electrical work which they have been schooled to do since an early age:
This is already available in many electrical fixtures and appliances.
I have asked to have my under bench electrical oven ‘plugged’ instead of wired in. Just had to stand my ground.
If DIY electrical work ever becomes legal here and such work has been done in a property for sale, I’d like to see that fact included and disclosed in the seller’s statement if and when the property is put up for sale.
As things stands now it’s superficial to say that declaring DIY work Illegal is overprotective and offensive.
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I must say my sympathies are with @longinthetooth.
I have been building and repairing mains powered things like amplifiers and radios for many years. Used to build my own computers out of parts bought, including the mains power supply.
Spent a year doing electrical and electronic engineering at Uni before switching to computing. Done many years stripping cables and connecting plugs, and have never thought twice about replacing a worn out appliance lead with a new lead and plug.
Or replacing a damaged battern light fitting with a new one, or a mechanically failed switch. Or a motor on a washing machine. Or heating element in a dryer. Or putting in a light fitting.
All of which I shouldn’t have done, according to the regulations.
Do I know what I am doing? Sure do.
Am I certified that I can demonstrate that I know what I am doing? Nope.
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Who are you replying to here? If you want to reply to the end of the whole thread click the Reply button at the bottom of the topic. If you want to reply to a specific post click the Reply button at the end of that post. If you want to comment or question a particular statement highlight the statement and then click the Reply button at the end of the post it occurs in, you can then respond to that quoted passage.
No, That is a straw man argument, nobody said that carpentry ought only be done by qualified carpenters, the topic was 230 v electrical work. Confusing the two will not help.
Right back to the start. If you accept that some DIY people are more competent and others are less in a given area (like electrical wiring) how do we tell them apart when it matters?
You say you are competent to rewire a ceiling fan. How do we know this and that you will not make any of the silly mistakes that are possible? Should we just take your word for it?
Not a point of disagreement.
The alternate proposal is that we need to seriously consider providing DIY a safe pathway to doing basic electrical work. It’s not a proposal for zero requirements. It’s not about creating risk. It is about managing the risk by providing a practical solution. It may not be acceptable for some of the community. There is more than one voice to be heard. We really do not know if it is not put to the community that we will find a better solution.
Appreciate that fact. We are going through an upgrade from gas to electric oven. To note the new oven came with a 3 pin plug and socketed cable. The other end was hard wired into a J-box, and a new circuit etc installed because there was no pre installed oven circuit. I’ve one more visit from the local sparky to finish off. The gas fitter to install the new cooktop. And a wait on the new range hood exhaust duct parts to come thru the local hardware store.
Aside from some down lights I’ve yet to find any other light fittings that have the same plug in convenience. Newer ceiling fans may come with a plug connection, but I note these too have a clear instruction in the manual re a licenced installer. It includes the LED light fitting which requires zero wiring. It simply twists on and is secured by a single screw! Replaceable yes. Home owner replaceable - not! Which may explain why this topic has some interest for me.
It’s a serious question, which ever view in respectfully holds. Especially if one considers putting in place reasonable and practical conditions/controls. No offence intended.
While I’m empathetic to one side of the discussion - we do need to show caution as suggested.
Responded to in this post.
My last comment was about the OP stating that in Australia we are treated like children…dumbing down of the population…
IMO it’s nothing like that, I welcome the protection as it now stands, for the many reasons that posters above have expressed in much better ways than I have.
Some of us have been doing what could be called ‘simpler’ electrical jobs and that has been going on for a long time. But it would worry me if DIY would be declared ‘legal’ because people would feel free to do a lot more electrical jobs for the simple reason of the savings it implies, but there’d be no assurance of the skill involved, again as others have already said.
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I’m replying to Mark_m reply. My previous reply was to phb, and it is attached to his post, might be your display is not showing indented replies?
I am talking about DIY, not doing the work of a Tradesman. Hence, not sure about the reasoning and need to know someone else’s competency.
Regarding a ceiling fan. The assembly is idiot proof, commonplace for most simple electrical appliances: every connection has a unique plug/socket. So, the only aspect that isn’t is the 3 cable connection to the mains, green, black and red. So, modern cable testers can determine the difference between live and neutral, hence if the the existing cables are incorrectly wired, you can easily tell which is which. Then it is just a case of turning the mains off, and making the connection, switch main on, test the polarity again, and then switch on the ceiling fan light switch. An alternative is as Gregr suggested, attach a plug to the tail of the fan; these plugs come with instructions, bizarrely, as you are not supposed to wire these up either!
Isn’t that licenced installer for the GPO in which to put the plug? As far as I am aware if you already have the power point in place then it is just a matter of putting the plug in and turning the power on. Most of these have a single speed and no remote (you could fit a smart plug device to allow turning on and off remotely). For most other fans that are not DIY it is a fitting on the wall for control which needs to be wired in and perhaps a remote. The fans themselves when not the plugged in type require 3 pole disconnection switches and a single pole disconnect (on active) for the wall control. I am still not sure I would like every everyday people doing that work without supervision or/and showing suitability or fitness for the work.
Perhaps we can have a householders certification system, then the person can undertake the work in their own household once they undertake the course, or prove they have RPL, and then show competence by a test. It should then be renewed on a reasonable basis to ensure the person stays up to date with the requirements. I guess some would complain that this means they have to spend money and time proving they are fit to undertake the work.
For Electricians they also need to prove they have kept abreast of changes to renew their licence. In Qld this is a on a 5 year basis.
"Renewing an electrical work licence
As an electrical worker you must keep your licence current if you are performing electrical work. An electrical worker licence is valid for 5 years, unless cancelled or suspended.
If your licence is due for renewal and a notice has not arrived, phone Electrical Licensing Enquiries on 1300 362 320.
To renew your licence, you need evidence that you have maintained your trade and first aid skills. If the licence is renewed within 12 months after expiry, the renewed licence will be issued with an expiry date 5 years from the original expiry date.
Step 1: Maintaining your skills
To renew your licence, you need to have kept your basic skills up to date in:
- electrical safety legislation
- risk management
- testing
- resuscitation.
You can assess your skills online using a Skills Maintenance Online Assessment.
Registered Training Organisations also deliver a number of approved courses to help you maintain your skills."
From the online skills maintenance course is the following
" Skills Maintenance Course Package and Online Assessment
Overview
The purpose of this course package is to enable Queensland electrical workers to satisfy the skills maintenance requirements of worker licence renewal prescribed by the Electrical Safety Regulation 2013.
Registered Training Organisations also provide approved courses that satisfy skills maintenance requirements for licence renewal and may provide training material that is more comprehensive in that it is tailored specifically to a particular industry or category of electrical work licence.
You must have completed a skills maintenance assessment within 2 years of your licence renewal date.
IF YOU COMPLETED A SKILLS MAINTENANCE ASSESSMENT MORE THAN TWO (2) YEARS AGO YOUR ACCOUNT WILL HAVE BEEN DEACTIVATED." (their bolding)
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Hang on there. Don’t drag my name into mains wiring changes. I do not change the wiring, at all.
Because if you mess up it will other harm people not just you. Such regulation is a matter of public safety. I pointed out that there are several ways to fail to correctly install a ceiling fan, it is not something just any adult can do. If you want to save $140 per visit how will others know that your work is safe if you are never tested?
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