Right to Repair - Productivity Commission Inquiry

Welcome to the community @Teleology.

It’s a useful warning for the product.
I had a quick read of the review by PCMag of the new Quest2. The review made it clear you needed a Facebook Login to use the device as well as connect with a range of suitable content.

PCMag also linked an article clarifying the need for purchases to create or link a Facebook Account as of Oct 2020. It was noted that users with an existing Oculus account login would be able to use their old account - grandfathered to Jan 2023.

It’s a conscious choice. One that would make me not bother with the product as I prefer not to ‘Face-plant’ what ever the need.

It may be appropriate to look to the fine print in the product agreement as to whether the content and software systems are covered by an EULA. It’s not unusual for some form of registration to be required for products with substantial software content, to enable their use and to protect the IP.

A further assumption is the agreement provides a personal privacy agreement. If it is not black and white stating Facebook and Oculus are complying with Australian privacy legislation, buyer beware?

Australian privacy protections should over-ride Facebook? Enforcement may be difficult. Worse, assuming Facebook breech Australian privacy provisions it’s likely impossible to undo any prior damage. I’d not bet on an Eloquence of Aussie Senior Councils offering any assurance of defeating Facebook in court and extracting blood from the proverbial stone. We only need to look to the EU to see how hard it is for nations to succeed, where they have the legislation and courts aligned.

I’m not sure this is really a ‘Right to Repair’ concern. It seems more a need for fair contract (T&Cs) of sale that provides for fair use, protection of that ongoing use and without a risk to personal privacy or security. Certainly relevant to ACL and issues often raised with the ACCC.

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Like many on the forum, I come from a generation where we repaired items, and kept at least useful parts from dead ones to repair other items.

The iPhone is case in point for blocking user repairs.

On the hardware side they have tri-lobe screw heads, and heat bonding of parts that make it very difficult to repair. Then the device reports that replacement parts aren’t genuine OEM when Apple do a diagnosis. This has been use to try to void warranty.

On the software side, to gain control of a large range of settings it is necessary to ‘Jailbreak’ the OS software. Nowdays the Apple stores ignore that, but they didn’t use to. I had a HTC phone which also needed the OS to be broken to gain control over settings.

I have battled all sorts of kitchen appliances such as stick blenders, coffee machines, Kenwood kitchen blenders etc, that now use plastic cogs which wear out or break, instead of metal; use plastic welds to join parts intead of screwing them, bond cases together so they can’t be easily be opened; and so on.

Another expample refered to earlier was the cost of replacing a controller board on a washing machine. It was going to cost ½ the price of a new machine to have the part replaced, IF and it was a BIG IF, a replacement controller board could be found. Sadly decided to toss the washing machine & replace it.

Finally, sourcing replacement parts is almost impossible a few years out. Our fridge had a plastic door stopper that stopped the door from opening too far out. It snapped because it was grossly under engineered for the weight of the door it had to stop. The only surprise was it took so long to snap. Firstly, it took quite a lot of trawling the internet to find somewhere that had the exploded parts list for that fridge to know what the part identification was. Then finding that no-one carried more than the basic parts (like grossly overpriced light globes that you could buy at Bunnings for much, much less).

I’m sure the manufacturers will have all sorts of rational reasons for doing what they do, but the end result is that it makes what we buy almost impossible to repair.

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Hi folks, thanks for the examples so far. We’re still looking for more cases. In particular, we’d love to hear about:

  1. Any product that was really poorly designed and would likely fail really quickly. Think flimsy or poor quality or something that we know just won’t last but could if it was built in a better way.
  2. A category of products that doesn’t last as long as people expect.
  3. A company that has offered a poor quality repair for a problem with a product.
  4. A software update that made some products less useful? The example used in the inquiry paper is Apple phone updates that made older models slower. I’ve also seen examples where companies stopped supporting products and made them obsolete
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Under consumer law, manufacturers must provide replacement parts for a ‘reasonable’ lifetime of the product.

Almost no items sold in supermarkets (eg coles, woolworths, kmart) have replacement parts available. This includes items with parts that would normally require replacement (rechargeable batteries that wear out, rubber seals, moving parts etc.) IMO this happens because consumers have gotten lazy and simply buy a new device before considering repair.

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I have a hideously expensive Ono Hiflex mixer. It has a unique veg sprayer that when it works is ‘special good’. The why is not for this topic.

image

But almost like clockwork after about 1 year +/- the sprayer stops shutting off when releasing the trigger, but pushing the sprayer up toward the hose will shut it off. At about 2 years it will not shut off unless manually hard-jammed to the hose.

They have replaced the sprayer multiple times under warranty as well as the ACL. I have a small collection of ‘dearly departed’ sprayers and have managed to take one apart - it is almost like a puzzle to dismantle but appears stone simple inside. It is hard to imagine how it can go bad considering it is nothing more than a spring and a few O-rings all of differing sizes on some plasticy bits.

I asked for instructions on dismantling the sprayer and replacing the O-rings (eg the specified sizes as each seems very slightly different). I presume the problem is a specific O-ring expands a small fraction over time and causes the problem; once it ‘fails’ what is the proper size for each O-ring?

They have refused but so far have replaced the sprayer head (RRP $245!) each time.

The design is faulty since they fail on schedule starting after about a year, and their refusal to date to provide instructions to repair, yet replaced it. I once asked what I might be doing to exacerbate the failure if it had something to do with use. Crickets!

I replaced the O-rings in the first ‘dearly departed’ to see if I could fix it, and discovered it is very sensitive to having exactly the right O-ring at each location, and if an incorrect one is used the sprayer will not shut off or otherwise malfunction. Trial and error using standard kits of O-rings never got me there.

It should be repairable. They will not provide repair instructions. They replace it.

The mixer itself, the veg sprayer notwithstanding, is superb.

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This may not quite fit your immediate needs.
Another type of issue relates to replacement parts and basic repairs.

The larger or heavier duty zero turn and tractor style mowers commonly use the same brand of hydrostatic drive. Hydro-Gear USA. These require regular replacement of branded oil filters and special oil.

The same transmission model can be found in a John Deere, Toro, Hustler, Kubota, Club Cadet etc branded mower. The filters and indeed the oil that is used are to common SAE standards, hence a wide market commodity which should be competitively available. The recommended hydraulic fluid has an alternative more common commercial product, but with half the recommended life, which is far from how any other similar hydraulic system is specified. Even the wheel hubs and studs are a 4 hole pattern, shared with powered golf carts and the Ford Motor Company 1960’s Falcon. The rims are common to golf cart wheels, but may have a non standard offset, just to be difficult.

Right to maintain and repair, but with an artificially constrained supply chain. The Aussie market may be just small enough to slip under the radar of the ACCC.

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If we want to reduce our rate of consumption (which seems to be the case, and makes a lot of sense), then we want products not only to have reasonable durability, but also reasonable repairability in the event of breakage or replacement of worn parts (as opposed to entire subsystems - if part of my washing machine breaks, I want to replace that part, rather than the entire drive system).

Unfortunately, some products are designed specifically to render repair impossible or impractical - for example, Apple has developed a bad reputation for this.

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Welcome to the community @el_gallo_azul,

I moved your topic into this existing one that is germane.

As for Choice testing also reference the following

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True of many portable consumer products.

If they are designed for efficient recycling, perhaps there is no penalty. The outcome is that Apple and others have done so to improve the durability of their products. Hence failure is far less likely, especially during warranty.

Unfortunately we do not have contemporary A vs B product comparisons to say for sure.

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Screen and battery replacement can be expensive and can be a real case of “where Angels fear to tread” if trying it at home.

Honestly I think most mobile equipment isn’t recycled for much beyond precious metal recovery (gold, silver and platinum) and possibly lithium. I have the recipe for the acid to dissolve them out but I don’t like the hazardous waste nor the process to dispose of that waste.

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From the US, applicable everywhere products are sold.

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And if you so much as open the wrong panel, you’ll void the warranty.

Such warnings are illegal. Consumer advocates point to the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and antitrust laws, which forbid companies from making warranties conditional on using specific parts or repair services. [itallics added]

That is in the USA. Is there an equivalent in Oz?

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No there isn’t an exception, it appears that in Australia it would fit into:

Consumer guarantees do not apply if you:

  • asked for a service to be done in a certain way against the advice of the business or were unclear about what you wanted (source).

If you open a product to carry out a repair or service when the business has indicated that it shouldn’t be done unless by a suitably qualified or experienced technician and the person opening the product isn’t, the warranty would be voided. Some products have such labels on the product or within user manuals.

If the product is damaged as a result of being opened, it would could also fall into:

  • misused a product in any way that caused the problem

Maybe this is something which could also be consider in the submission that where a service or repair is safe (electrically safe or won’t damage the product), a consumer should have the right to repair/service without impacting on a warranty.

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Hi folks,

I thought you may be interested in this article.

We also have a survey going to help with the policy team’s submission to the inquiry.

Best,
Saimi

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Choice is referenced in this article but some perspective on reality re mobile phone repairs…

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission said in its submission to the inquiry that it is difficult to force a manufacturer to offer a remedy required under Australian consumer law without a customer taking the matter to court.

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This has been the source of much discussion here on the forum, that the ACL is only as meaninful as the manufacturers/retailers choose. If manufacturers/retailers decide to ignore their obligations under ACL, and many of them do, then the ACL is totally worthless to the consumer.

I fantacise that one day a Government will give the ACL and other consumer protections some teeth.

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A uniform, a badge, a book full of on the spot fines, and warrants?

That your air con is broken is not great.
That your dish washer has stopped working is a pain.
If the washing machine is broken a day or two is too long.
Of your fridge is kaput, so is all the food.

Who has the time to argue the ACL and statutory warranty before ordering and paying for a repair?

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Yes, it is almost like the ACCC follows the Community… and sits on its behind while intently watching… as some of us have opined it probably works exactly as designed - window dressing for the most egregious examples and nothing for the rest excepting an occasional jawbone or hand wring.

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It would be great…but I would be delegating it to the State Government Offices of Fair Trading to look after which they more or less do now…using a wet feather. The ACCC should be taking on corporations which step outside the ACL, the state governments are better set up to handle consumer day to day operational issues.

The State Government should also report back to the ACCC where it records businesses and trends. If there are trends, then this could be grounds for it to take a big stick to a particular business.

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Maybe they do, and the ACCC is actually a subsidiary of the fabled [Saturday Night Live skit] Grayson Moorhead Securities Company. The ‘transcript’ gets right on topic about half way through. :rofl:

Grayson Moorhead Securities I

[ SUPER: “Grayson Moorhead Securities. A Tradition of Excellence.” ]

Narrator : On Wall Street, trendy investment fads have come and gone over the years, but not at Grayson Moorhead, where we’ve always stuck to the basic principles set forth by Arthur Grayson nearly 80 years ago.

Arthur Grayson : Our clients must be our first priority.

[ SUPER: “The Tradition Endures” ]

We will take our client’s money and invest it. Part of the profit we will keep for ourselves; the rest we will give to the client.

[ SUPER: “A Tradition of Security” ]

We will make a list of our clients, and how much money each of them has given us to invest. We will keep this list in a safe place. If we have time, we will make a copy of the list, in case something happens to the first list.

[ SUPER: “A Tradition of Listening” ]

Listen to your client. It’s the only way to know what he’s saying.

[ SUPER: “A Tradition of Trust” ]

If a client is talking, and you’re not listening, and he notices, and he accuses you of not listening, just say, “Sure, I’ve been listening, I’ve heard every word you’ve said.” If he then says, “Alright, tell me what I’ve been talking about.” Just say, “You’ve been talking about your investments. Which stocks to buy and so on.” That way the client will think you’ve been listening, even though you haven’t.

[ SUPER: “A Tradition of Integrity” ]

We will invest only in white-owned businesses.

Narrator : Not all of Arthur Grayson’s principles are followed today, but at Grayson Moorhead we still believe in the basics.

Arthur Grayson : Don’t leave the client’s money lying around. Keep it in a safe place. For example: where we keep the list.

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