Fuel price issues

Perhaps instead of then relying on OS manufacturers we might make our own Li ion batteries, to cover possible eventualities such as the case of halting exports of them to our country. We have the resources and skills just not the incentive or perhaps desire to do so at the larger business and political levels we need to have this foresight. Why do we need to always fall back to more carbon burning practices? Gas etc for very short term perhaps in the case of sudden or unexpected cessation of supply but we need to move towards developing the industries now rather than rely on continuing down the fossil fuel path. Regardless of this, if our crude oil supply lines ceased tomorrow 18 days would not be anywhere enough time for any real action to address the problems that the lack would cause. Even 90 days is dismal, perhaps only allowing enough time for new supply lines to be started but even this does not address our economic security in the case of war or other drastic events. Burning the fossil fuel certainly does in no way address climate warming and the threats it represents.

18 days might give enough time for our very rich to flee and that just leaves the rest of us to wonder what we can then do.

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An article regarding the current rip-off petrol prices in Australia.

Immediately after the Saudi attacks, an article stated that petrol prices would probably rise by around 7 cents a litre in 2 weeks, and that Australian petrol prices rise by 1 cent a litre for each USD increase per barrel.

Cairns prices for U91 wwere 133.9 cents a litre before the attacks and had risen to 139.9 cents a litre when I filled up on 23.09.2019.

Whilst I was out yesterday, I noted that the rip-off merchants had jacked their prices up to 149.9 cents a litre.

The price per barrel is now around USD 5 higher but the retail price of U91 is 16 cents per litre greater.

Where is the fearless ACC when you need them.

Oops. Forget it.

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Missing in action for sure now that the final ‘C’ for Commission has gone from their title.

Good one @Fred123. :wink:

Some of the relevant background can be found in here if you love numbers:

The less boring facts may be:

  • diesel consumption in Australia is approx twice that of petrol,
  • we currently typically hold 20-22 days supply of diesel,
  • 75% of our fuel consumption goes to transport (think food, public transport, rail, and Bunnings). It’s not for personal vehicle use,
  • diesel engines cannot operate on LPG/LNG - although blended duel fuel operation is possible,
  • Not all existing petrol engines vehicles can be readily converted to run on LPG/LNG

As Australia’s retail distribution for LPG or an LNG product is contracting (1 in 9 outlets, typically only one or two hoses), it would seem too late to change direction.

Gas conversions start at around $4,000 per light vehicle. Nation wide an NBN scale project and beyond. We are still working on the NBN after more than a decade.

Plan B - :kick_scooter: and C :horse_racing:

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The entire Perth public transport diesel bus fleet runs on natural gas.

There would be little point in using LPG as it will be in the same boat as petrol and diesel.

Most of the local taxi fleet of over 100 cabs were LPG powered prior to theToyota Prius, following which they became the largest taxi fleet in the world using the Prius and I don’t thinkthere are any LPG cabs left.

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We have huge amounts of gas available unlike petroleum which we mainly import. Contractually we are bound to export most of it, perversely constricting the domestic market, but during an emergency we could reverse that.

LPG is mainly butane and propane which has a higher energy content than LNG which is mainly methane. Can anybody tell me if a gas engine built to use one can be readily tweaked to use the other? In the case of gas stoves you can switch gasses by changing jets and fiddling the air intakes.

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I read an article a few years ago which featured an old bushie and his old Holden 1 tonne ute which was powered by natural gas.

I assumed that it would be a modified LPG conversion.

I tried to find the article without success but did find these ones.

https://www.advancedfuels.com.au/natural-gas-vehicles/

https://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/lowemissionvehicles/knowledge_bank/transport_fuels/natural_gas_cng_and_lng

https://www.kleinfelder.com.au/index.cfm/resource-library/client-insight/transitioning-distribution-fleets-from-diesel-to-lng/

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NOT THAT CHALLENGING.

Wikipedia

Conversion to LPG or CNG is similar but not the same. LNG Is more than a tweak. There are numerous examples of CNG fuelled vehicles OS (cars and heavier transport). LNG more practical for heavier transport vehicles.

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-natural-gas-cars-work

Some differences between CNG/LNG and LPG.

https://www.elgas.com.au/blog/1975-can-lpg-be-used-in-cng-cars

A Diesel engine can be converted to run on a dual (mixed blend of diesel and CNG).

https://landirenzo.com/en/cng-system-diesel-vehicles

Or a Diesel engine can be converted to run in CNG/LNG alone with a major overhaul and head modification/replacement that includes spark plugs to ignite the fuel mixture. In which instance it is no longer an Otto Cycle or Diesel engine.

P.S.
An alternate view point which supports using natural gas for generation of electricity to charge an EV as providing twice the benefit and energy efficiency of direct combustion. Take it however you might like, given the sponsor is the US Govt Dept of Energy!

Any one looking for more information, it helps to recognise that outside CNG may be the best search term, given it is more typically used other than LNG. There are numerous suppliers of conversion equipment to suit LPG and CNG. It’s worth noting the Brisbane and Perth NG fuelled buses had fires and refuelling leaks. Brisbane latest purchased new Volgren buses are powered by Euro 6 emissions standards Diesel engines.

Need a conversion kit?
https://www.progas.com.au/lpg-and-cng-components/
There are plenty of other suppliers around who should also be able to advise on compliance with the ADRs.

Volgren which manufacturers buses in Australia has supplied both natural gas engine powered buses and diesel engined powered buses. They are either diesel buses or natural gas buses. The engines are very different.

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As indicated in an earlier post, they will operate on biodiesel which could be produced from plant and animal based oils. This would be the easiest option to keep the vehicle ‘that keep Australia moving’, moving.

It is also worth noting that our local servios in SE Qld have noved much inthe past 2 weeks, since the attack on the Saudi oil refinery. The prices have been around $1.35/L since then.

Looks like they have a mind of their own around here.

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Whilst the local fuel cartel has standardised U91 prices at 149.9 cents/litre, they don’t seem to be able to synchronise the collusion on diesel.

Today it ranged from parity with U91 at 149.9 cents/litre to 154.9 cents’ a litre.

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That’s costing most of us car owners between 10c and 20 per km.

Is gas any better value?

We export LNG at less than $10 per GigaJoule, currently closer to $6.

Domestic natural gas is similar in pricing to export parity but billed usually at a few cents per MJ.

One GigaJoule of gas (CNG, LNG, or LPG) is enough for the average car to drive 300-500km assuming a consumption of 2-3 MJ per km.

Potentially about half the retail cost of petrol, but then there is the government fuel excise tax to consider?

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In our area, the cycles look nothing like this. Usually prices decrease over a 2-4 week period before spiking back up. It might be down to completion as we have many of the main players, including the supermarkets and discount chains (PUMA and United).

An article regarding Qld Police will text fuel theives to ask them to kindly pay for the fuel.

When I read this, I checked that today was actually 1.10.2019, not 01.04.2019.

What an absolute joke.

A lot of the fuel thefts in FNQ involve low-life scum refuelling stolen vehicles prior to using them to ram-raid liquor shops, crashing them and/or or setting them on fire.

Our security screen repairer told us on Saturday that he had just repaired a home in an upmarket area of Cairns where the grubs had got in, taken the car keys from the bedside table, stolen the vehicle and wrote it off.

The only thing that this sort of text may achieve is to alert the owner that the vehicle has been stolen before they wake up in the morning.

Unless of course the scum have also stolen the owner’s mobile and the police have a delusion that they will return to pay for the fuel.

And the QPS website states that fuel theft is a crimminal offence.

https://www.police.qld.gov.au/fuel-drive-offs-sms-or-email

Time to stop hiding in the bushes with cameras and get out there and do some real policing.

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Well SMS & Email so if they don’t have a mobile number to SMS they can try an email address if that is on the file. Both fail as you said for those who have stolen the car, & it fails for those who don’t have a phone number for a device that receives texts and/or a don’t have an email address. The latter two are probably not very likely to be an occurrence but are still possibilities, what chance do they get “amend the issue” before being charged?

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Oir area has finally all gone up to around $1.70/L excluding discounts. It was an unusual cycle as for the past week about half servos had the higher price, while others were still around $1.35/L excluding discounts. The higher prices or lower prices were not confined to the same retailer as the same retailer at different nearby locations had either high or low pricing.

Usually when prices fo up, they all go up within a very short period (a day or two). This time it seems to take about a week to 10 days for all prices everywhere to increase.

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BrisVegas has just done it again 22 Oct 2019, or has the whole of the east coast?

$1.739for unleaded 91! It was $1.359 on the way into town, then, ‘kaboom!#, kapow!#, holy petrol company directors 
’

How many households spend more on fuel than electricity?

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With or without solar? :wink:

You may not be following the ACCC’s advice to shop around because this is just the way it is, so there is nothing to see and no collusion.

FWIW a few days ago our locals tried to up into the $1.70 range and it lasted a few hours for most before they went back to the competitive $1.36 range but one 7-11 holdout stayed at $1.71 and the Caltext directly across the road reverted to $1.36. There were more customers at the 7-11 bowsers than the Caltex as I drove by.

Currently 145.9/l to 149.9/l for U91 in Cairns & Townsville.

Great to see the country areas get a better deal for a change.

We used to spend more on electricity than petrol before our solar system but we will now be paying around 10 times more for fuel.

Depends how far you need to drive I guess? :wink:
Or now long this cycle lasts?

Petrol Spy the next day.


Woollies Beerwah approx 30km north of Caboolture is at $1.469 or Costco North Lakes a bit closer to the South $1.317!

We are all on the same boat, so no point grumbling. Politicians wives or partners also need to fill up, use the NBN and pay their utilities bills too.

If some of us were to mention we have solar PV that delivers zero cost power at current feed in tariffs, no other external utilities costs ‘cause the council doesn’t provide any, and just the rates bill to pay, it seems fuel costs are a worthy target. I am grateful for such small blessings. And no NBN to consider, for now!

I need to remind the local Federal Member next time he is around of just how wonderful it is. Self funded sewage treatment, self funded water supply and treatment, self funded solar PV. Apparently the NBN is also self funded too? No wonder he is still in government.

And true, our Bigger roads are largely self funded through taxes on fuel and tolls.

The only thing I can think of at the moment that is not self funding are our politicians. :rofl:

P.S.
In one way the higher petrol goes the greater the incentive to increase the spend on public transport and the more likely the payback on an EV using today’s low value battery technology! Is the PM really on the side of the Greens?

Our local area the servos (Woolies, Coles, United, Puma, Frreedom) are still around $1.36-1.38
with Coles being at the higher end.

Edit: on 24 October 2019, prices still around $1.36-1.38/L
25 October 2019, prices have increased to between $1.50-1.72/L

Last time the price increase was about 5-7 days later than other areas and will be interesting to see if it happens again this time.

Possibly a lot.

The average household does 15000km per vehicle per year. Which means a annual fuel of about $1400 per car per year (av. 6L/100km and 1.50/L). As most households have 2 or more cars, this equates to around $3000 per year for fuel
add in insurance, rego, serving, depreciation etc and the cost will be significantly higher.

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