Delta Airlines

[Jon01]

Getting bad service is not news to me.
Previously I got NSW Fair Trading involved, they did something eg contact the business concerned and hopefully find a solution that is reasonable.
But in the case of Etihad breaking my luggage, FT was of no use. I won my battle without their involvement.
Still in the air travel space, a recent application to them elicited the following reply: “we cannot help you and suggest you may wish to take the matter to NCAT”. And here’s me thinking that ANY application to NCAT should be preceded by intervention by NSW FT.

It is clear to me that NSW FT does not concern itself with trivial matters like breaches of ACL (in my case, being on the receiving end of misleading & deceptive conduct).

So here is the situation:
A few months ago I flew to the US on DL and was to have 3 hours in a transit point before continuing my journey with a connecting flight also with DL.
Note it was my choice to have 3 hrs layover. DL website selected a connecting flights with a 1 or 2 hr layover. As though I could clear customs and be at the right gate that fast!

I missed my connection because DL staff told me to recheck my luggage (at the transit airport) in what proved to be the wrong terminal (they operate in at least two terminals at the airport concerned) and other DL staff told me to stand in the wrong TSA security check line.
They all told me this while checking my boarding pass for the connecting flight. They saw exactly where I was traveling, yet one staff member put me in the TSA line for international departures.
By the time I realised the multiple errors of DL staff, it was too late to exit the wrong TSA line and make it to the correct terminal in time to join the flight. But I tried and arrived to be denied boarding.

I complained to DL at the time. I complained when I returned to Oz.
DL does not deny the wrong information was given to me but claims that I missed the connecting flight because customs clearance was slow. Hence they argue they owe me bugger all.
Yes customs was slow, but I still had 50 mins from the time I existed customs until the connecting flight departed. I could have easily made the booked flight if I was not given misleading information and lining up in the wrong security line. I had no luggage with me to check in due to incompetence by DL staff who unilaterally sent it on the correct flight without me. I was on the following day’s flight.
(Apparently it is AOK for luggage to be transported without their owners on the same aircraft by US carriers on their domestic flights, but it’s a big no-no on US carriers’ international flights).

According to DL website, those without luggage (eg me) must be at the boarding gate (for domestic flights) no later than 15 mins before departure of the tiny embraer. Had I received correct information from DL, I could easily have made it to the correct gate 30-40 mins before departure.

There were no other flights that night to where or near where I wanted to go so I was forced to stay overnight in a city I did not want to stay in. I searched for >2 hours for a hotel room and managed to only found 2 hotels with rooms and the cheapest was USD 170, which I took.
This wrecked my 4 night holiday in north east USA.
DL refused to reimburse me for the hotel expense incurred by me solely as a consequence of me following their misleading advice. Or was it incompetent advice? Under the provisions for misleading & deceptive conduct, it is immaterial if the deception is intentional or not.

I did not (maybe I should have) seek reimbursement for taxi fares and b/fast.
After a few emails, DL offered me 5000 points, but not my claimed USD 170.
I told them to keep the points as they doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. In fact at best they are worth USD 50 which is only 29% of my claim. And giving me points is a none too subtle way to try to keep me flying with them.
Now that I know that DL washed their hands of their own appalling behaviour, notwithstanding on board service and meals in economy surpass AA, US and QF, I will not risk wrecking my next holiday by flying with those who cannot take responsibility for their actions. Actions that unjustly impose costs on innocent pax.

Of course if I go to NCAT I will top up my claim to include the NCAT filing fee.
Any thoughts on whether I am justified in my claim?

[phb]

It is a case of ‘he said, she said’. Whether a NCAT claim would be successful is unknown, especially when staff you communicated with at the US airport are unlikely to attend and be able to defend an information provided to NCAT. Whether the staff in question can be found is also unlikely as they would deal with a enormous number of people regularly and possibly won’t remember an individual interaction.

Being in a foreign, unfamiliar place the risks of misunderstandings increases. These misunderstandings may be at either side - misunderstanding the question asked and/or misunderstanding the answer given.

The other complication which will reduce likelihood of success is you decided to extend the layover yourself by breaking the journey. Meaning, the airline was possibly no longer responsible for getting you to the next leg.

Further airports are well signed to assist passengers. Unless a passenger has sight issues (can’t see signage), a seasoned (which you appear to he as you yave travelled a bit) passenger would be able to see the route to the connecting flight was wrong and adjust their actions.

It appears Fair Trading has no interest which may give one clues to what they think success would be.

Maybe see if your travel insurer provides cover for such events.

[Jon01]

Your point on “he said she said” is not right.
At the transit point my luggage was taken off me by baggage services for int’l flights for DL and not domestic flights.
They took my luggage after verifying the tags, scanning them and looking at my boarding pass. Each step was a failure by DL as I was connecting to a domestic flight which was clear from the name of the airport on all items: boarding pass, luggage tag etc.

“He said, she said” may be an argument but for DL by email not disputing what I was told by staff and that my luggage flew unaccompanied without my consent.

@phb

The other complication which will reduce likelihood of success is you decided to extend the layover yourself by breaking the journey. Meaning, the airline was possibly no longer responsible for getting you to the next leg.

Maybe I was unclear. I did not decide on any layover. I stopped in a transit point only to change planes because I could not get a flight to the airport in question without a transit en route. I had zero intention of staying longer than needed in the transit point.

[Jon01]

You mention “travel insurer”. I will look into that but from memory claims have a $350 excess which is greater than the $260 I am claiming. But your point is good.

As to your comment on FT, I think their view may be more reflective of the powers they have than an indication of any interest they have. After all, how - without FT’s help - did I manage to get Etihad to pony up to the cent what I asked for?

The time is long past when airlines/ cruise companies/hotels need to be given a list of what conduct is impermissible and what relief pax/guests are due without anyone needing to push paper at FT or NCAT etc.

[PhilT]

@Jon01

DL website selected a connecting flights with a 1 or 2 hr layover. As though I could clear customs and be at the right gate that fast!

Was it at ATL - Deltas home hub? Or perhaps JFK or EWR or LAX?

Web sites (and agents) use ‘rules’ about minimum connecting times at every hub and international airport. Depending where your international flight originated the minimum connecting time could be from 30 minutes to 3 hours. Flights to the US originating from Canada have already passed US immigration and customs in Canada so they are essentially domestic when they get to the US. I can understand your desire for a leisurely 3 hours. FWIW I once had a 45 minute connection at LAX between my QF flight and a domestic AA flight. While it was pre 911 when lines were not as long and people were at least slightly more polite regardless they needed to hustle, everyone and their luggage appeared to make it.

If your DL flights were on the same PNR as it appears they were, no matter why you missed the connection DL was obligated to get you to your destination as it appears they did. If you accepted the ‘1 or 2 hour’ layover offered by the web site and missed the connection you would have been on the next available flight having a seat.

As an aside and warning for others, if one has two tickets (different PNRs) and misses a connecting flight can be a ‘so sorry so sad too bad’ if that second one is a non-refundable fare since the pax is deemed a no-show at gate time.

@Jon01

Apparently it is AOK for luggage to be transported without their owners

Since you and your luggage were checked through to your destination they did the right thing. It was not incompetence. There are cases it is OK such as delayed luggage following behind the pax, and a pax or luggage missing a connection is not exactly rare with long hauls and customs/immigration such as they are.

@Jon01

Of course if I go to NCAT

I suspect DL would be a no show and you would get a default judgement. Their cost to attend would outweigh any penalty they could reasonably have awarded against them. How do you value your time since consequential damages are unlikely (eg valuing your lost hours at the destination)? If they attended it would be an ‘I said they said’ and there was no ‘deception’ I can discern since my understanding is deception in the legal sense requires intent to mislead rather than providing best efforts yet incorrect information.

Your up side would probably be recovering the NCAT filing fee, $USD170, and dinner/brekkie if you kept receipts. You would have the onus of collection on yourself. I would not guess at what evidence would be accepted and enough if DL fronted the tribunal.

@Jon01

Any thoughts

Considering your previous posts suggest you are a traveller who should have been aware, checking monitors, and so on, not just relying on staff, and double checking for last minute gate changes as you traversed the terminal(s) in what may have been a complex airport (and why you sought directions). I would write it off as educational.

[Jon01]

Re luggage, yes both my luggage and I were checked through but if I do not pony up to the connecting flight’s gate in time, why is my luggage not unlaoeded?

Re NCAT: there is no “she said he said”. My claim of what took place was accepted by DL staff near the boarding gate and by DL customer care (now that is a misnomer).

As to what I lost in the trip…. Well I wanted 4 nights in NYC and got only 3, so yes, I did suffer a loss as I did not have the enjoyable time I expected given I lost 25% of the time I planned.

[PhilT]

@Jon01

why is my luggage not unlaoeded?

Because in that scenario you are checked in and they route your bag to your final destination because that is not the originating leg of your trip. If it was the originating leg the bags would or should have been taken off the plane because you become a no-show. Mid-route their obligation changes to getting your bag to the tagged destination.

@Jon01

there is no “she said he said”.

That would be true if you have a written transcription from Delta agreeing on your claims, not one that includes your claims and their claims. If you are depending on your ‘recollection’ of verbal interactions it is less assured if Delta denies it.

Regardless there was no incompetence with your bag nor deceptive conduct by the ground staff you dealt with getting you between the inbound and outbound gates. Incorrect information? Seems so or you would not have missed the connection but even incorrect information would probably be considered ‘best efforts, no guarantees’ with Delta having discretion on how to handle your claim in the US.

@Jon01

I wanted 4 nights in NYC and got only 3

You will find many instances of that on the net and airlines have no responsibility to compensate a pax for consequential losses due to late or cancelled flights beyond those directly related to the ticketed transportation, and that varies by market (country or bloc).

As the leg was apparently a domestic US flight……policy doesn’t necessarily help defray other incurred costs, such as food and lodging, or help travelers who would rather continue to their destination instead of accept a refund. Here, airlines have some discretion to dole out money — especially if a delay or cancellation is their fault and not due to something beyond their control, such as bad weather. “There’s no reason not to ask…”

Reasons for missing the connection for reasons you claim could be arguable. The EU has specific fixed compensation for many scenarios. The US does not. Since your incoming flight had no bearing for missing the connection my educated guess is it is on you unless Delta provides good will compensation; Delta putting you on the next available flight was their only obligation.

Booking the last flight of the day (if that is what you did) is never a good idea international or domestic because if anything goes awry it means an overnighter.

There is nothing more I can add. If you go to NCAT please let us know how it goes.

[phb]

@Jon01

My claim of what took place was accepted by DL staff near the boarding gate and by DL customer care (now that is a misnomer).

You indicated that:

@Jon01

DL does not deny the wrong information was given to me but claims that I missed the connecting flight because customs clearance was slow. Hence they argue they owe me bugger all.
Yes customs was slow,

It appears that one of the main reasons that you missed your flight was customs was slow. This usually isn’t the issue caused by the airlines, but the organisation which operates customs at the airport.

What airport personnel say and what you recollect is what is called ‘he says, she says’. Your recollection in the heat of the moment is only one version of events.

As indicated above, being a seasoned traveller you should be able to navigate an airport to get to your gate…even if the information received wasn’t correct or was misunderstood/misleading. You would also know as a seasoned traveller, that gates can change from check-in to departure and any information provided by airport personnel can be subject to change at short notice. Departure times can also change at short notice as well (I have even experienced departure being brought forward due to all passengers checking in early). This is why it is the responsibility of a departing passenger to ensure that they look at departure boards for boarding times, gates where they need to be for departure and also ensure that where they are within the airport is where they need to be to facilitate boarding and departure.

With the additional information you are providing, it is unlikely that you will have much success with trying to ‘blame’ Delta Airlines for missing the connecting flight, thus seeking compensation from them. It appears that responsibility is likely to be that of the customs operators with potentially some responsibility on the passengers for not following departure boards and airport signage to get the the gate of departure. Delta could have proved some information which was incorrect/misunderstood by passengers, but we may never know what questions were asked and what information was provided.

When making an application to NCAT, all information available needs to be provided. Not doing so would be seen as misleading NCAT. NCAT will assess this information, including that from Delta Airlines and could draw a similar conclusion. If you decide to take it to NCAT, good luck.

[Jon01]

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

1. As to "he said, she said’, DL in their email infer that I was given incorrect advice, but argue that “even if correct advice was given” I did not have enough time to make it to the connecting flight. This I reject as I 50 mins to make the flight after completing customs etc;

2. The transit was Boston’s Logan airport; and

3. By all means, I shall keep you posted on what happens at NCAT.

[Jon01]

Thanks for your reply.
The issue is not that I did not check what gate to go to. The issue is:

1. I was arriving at Boston on an int’l flight with DL;
2. I was told that on arrival to collect my bag and recheck it at the transfer desk near customs;
3. The woman who took my bag verified the bag tag on it and my boarding pass;
4. I complete that and by 19:10 or so and was told where to go for security check ie TSA;
5. I did as I was told and only after I traversed that long winded line and looked at the monitor for gates, I realised I was in the int’l not domestic DL terminal;
6. I have never been to Boston and what should have occurred was that my bag should not have been accepted at the luggage transfer desk outside customs as that is only for int’l flights. Note there is no identification on that desk that it relates only to int’l flights. I was flying to La Guadia airport (LGA) and staff insisted on seeing my boarding pass as I handed over the bag.
7. To clarify, (a) when I booked the flight with the connection DL website defaulted to a connecting flight under 2 hrs gross from the ETA. It was I who chose the later (and only other available flight) instead to connect with; (b) customs took a long time, but still having finished with customs, collected my bag for rechecking and deposited said bag by 19:15, I still had time to make it to the connecting flight’s gate as I had no luggage with me anymore.
8. My point is that “but for the incorrect information provided to me” I would have been on the connecting flight. It was crucial that I made that flight, ideally with my bag.

[phb]

@Jon01

I was told that on arrival to collect my bag and recheck it at the transfer desk near customs;

This is a relatively common practice. When changing from an international flight to a domestic flight, one needs to take baggage through customs for clearance and then to a transfer desk to deposit baggage for the next domestic leg. This approach is used in many countries when there is an onward domestic flight after international arrival and saves passengers lugging their luggage some distance to another terminal. We have struck this approach ourselves in China, Taiwan, Vietnam and Chile.

We have also been to airports where transfer desks aren’t available and passengers lug their luggage some distance to another terminal for a connecting flight. This isn’t an overly positive experience.

I would be frustrated if I missed and didn’t have luggage for an unplanned overnight stay (esp. after a long international flight were a change into clean clothes is all one might want). This frustration would could lead to trying to find someone else to blame.

@Jon01

I did as I was told and only after I traversed that long winded line and looked at the monitor for gates, I realised I was in the int’l not domestic DL terminal

This is your err.

We find at often after a long international flight we are tired, disorientated and can’t wait to arrive at our destination. It is very easy to get confused being in a foreign place where things might not be the same to that one is familiar.

Something we always do is double check everything. Check departure terminal and gates, boarding times and best way to get to the gate (we even do this before arriving at the airport by looking at airport maps which are available online and how best to get between terminals).

@Jon01

I still had time to make it to the connecting flight’s gate as I had no luggage with me anymore

It may have been possible if you had checked information and ensured you knew where you were heading and following airport signage/departure board information.

As indicated above, if you were ‘tired, disorientated and can’t wait to arrive at our destination’, it is very easy to misunderstand what has been said. As indicated above, it comes down to ‘he said and she said’.

Even if airport personnel provided you with information which was confusing or potentially incorrect - airports contain signage and boards which passengers can readily use and follow to ensure they arrive at a gate on time. It appears that this was not done in this case and possibly a lesson to learn for the future.

It is not airport personnel (who you have indicated you believe are Delta airline staff you interacted with) to blame for one not looking at their surroundings and proceeding based on available displayed information.

If the airport personnel personally escorted you to the wrong gate which caused you to miss your flight, then you may have some grounds for a claim.

[PhilT]

@phb

after a long international flight we are tired, disorientated and

An OT story. Arriving in the EU after a long haul the partner needed a ‘real coffee’ - eg a ‘Melbourne coffee’. She saw a coffee shop and ran in, ordered and after partaking declared it was about the worst coffee she ever had. I asked what she expected from a Starbucks. She hadn’t noticed until then. ‘tired and disoriented’ comes in many forms, mistaking a Starbucks as a place for ‘Melbourne coffee’ being just one. It took her hours to forgive me for not stopping her.

[mark_m]

@phb

before arriving at the airport by looking at airport maps which are available online and how best to get between terminals

Part of my travel routine before I leave home, even for airports I’ve used previously. The other hack is to have my mobile roaming or OS sim option sorted in advance to hit the ground (just a figure of speech if flying) connected.

Boston Logan Airport Map: Guide to BOS's Terminals

Some airport guides may be more helpful than others. Google translate can be useful.
‘https://www.osaka-airport.co.jp/static/documents/map/floor_guide.pdf

[PhilT]

@mark_m

Google translate can be useful.

Selecting ‘English’ is even better

Airport Map | Osaka International Airport (Itami Airport)

but alas, when one needs the ‘floor guide’, your link is ‘it’. Google translate anyone?

[Jon01]

Thanks for the feedback. On the issue of roaming, it should be clearer to all, but rarely is, that paying say $5 per day for roaming does not mean every or even many popular locations are included. I discovered when paying for roaming before departing Oz that the UAE (where I stayed a while) is excluded from Vodafone’s laundry list of countries serviced by this feature.