Netflix picture format issues

Electronics & Technology
21

You’re still describing your frustration rather than the actual problem, but I’ll try to help. More questions, so that I can help better.

You mention “letterbox”. Can you confirm that you mean black at top and bottom, but that the picture fills the screen from side to side?

If so, the next question is: when you see a circle on the image (something in the movie) is it a circle, or is it distorted, and in what way? That’s a really good indicator of what might happen next.

Or is there something else about the picture that is incorrect?

Also: what pictures/sources display correctly in your opinion?

22

I don’t know how else to describe the problem other than what I’ve said. In Netflix the picture format settings are completely greyed out so I can’t change aspect ratio etc. yes there are black bars top and bottom with a horizontal view of the picture Circles are not distorted The rest of the picture is fine just not full screen view. And this is what cannot be changed. Hope the attached picture helps.

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image4032×3024 2.72 MB

23

The most direct explanation is the obvious one some of us may not prefer. Netflix +/- LG have now locked content to the original aspect ratio. 21:9, 2:1 (20:10), 16:9, or even 4:3 and 5:4 for older broadcast TV. There is historical discussion concerning whether streaming services would ever update to 21:9 etc noting 720p/1080i was bleeding edge.

I’ll have to see whether the same problem arises with our Sony 1080p not so youthful TV. It has Sony Android with updates …? It does letterbox some content, including Netflix and Prime. Manual setting changes in the Sony menu often produce unexpected results, hence good reason not to. Personal opinion only, but any tech that needs one to do more than turn it on and off to function to it’s best should be discounted as faulty. The original B&W Phillips CRT TV in the home needed just 4 knobs to perform. On/off combined volume, channel, brightness, contrast.

Slightly fewer controls than the typical motor vehicle of the day. Only 8 from memory if an auto and one waved your arm out the window when indicating. Possibly setting a benchmark that can explain why many find modern tech challenging in its complexity. :roll_eyes:

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24

OK, I have one possible answer, and that is that the software is working (or broken) as designed. Given that there is no distortion to circles, what you’re seeing is correct display of a picture that is wider than 16x9 (or 1.78:1 in film terms), and that is being shown in intended format.

Some quick background, and then a suggestion.

The 16x9 aspect ratio for HD-TV was picked for technical reasons associated with television, and is close enough to film widescreen (1.85:1) that side cropping loses little. Therefore everyone crops so that you see a full-frame image from widescreen material re-mastered to be shown on TV sets.

Cinemascope is substantially wider at 2.55:1, and while you could just side-crop that (pillar-boxing) the results would displease almost everyone. Generally therefore, widescreen content is mastered to be letterboxed, and that’s regarded by the industry as best compromise. And given the shift towards really big screens (even a 66" screen is spectacularly big at typical viewing distances) the black bars at top and bottom should have little effect on viewing satisfaction. Way less impact than if the sides were cropped, for instance.

For technical readers, there’s another completely separate discussion about whether the image pixels are square or rectangular and that’s outside this discussion. What’s really important is that the display parameters of the player client and the display parameters of the TV match in a way that leaves the picture undistorted. In this case, if circles are indeed displayed as circular, that’s happened. Your screengrab has no circles in the image, but it does look like it’s correct aspect ratio all round (including the menu).

There are two places where display could be changed. One is in the software of the display client - eg, your Netflix software. The other place is in the TV set itself. You’ll have several options within the LG aspect ratio settings, most of which do awful things to the picture but do hide black bars. The studios and aggregators/pay outlets know this, and it’s not unreasonable for them to disable options in their software that will make images worse.

Netflix does not want to deal with support requests from people who have mis-set their software so that people are thin and circles are squashed sideways. Actually, nobody does.

So what I think has happened here is that the option to change the aspect ratio in the playout client is turned off to ensure display of the material in correct format.

The suggestion is that if intended format is not to your liking you can typically adjust the TV to overscan and therefore lose the bars (by cropping the sides). But then you’d be missing parts of the image carefully framed by the director and DoP, and that has impacts to story. And a big caveat: once you adjust the TV, especially if you set it to overscan, it’s going to be wrong for everything else. Some people put up with that to avoid bars, but my advice is leave everything set to defaults and enjoy what the director intended.

Does that help? And if I’ve misinterpreted the question and your feedback, please let me know.

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25

Mark_m just noting that aspect ratio (eg: 16x9), resolution (eg: 720 or 1080) and progressive/interlace (p vs i) are unrelated other than by convention. There are some very pointless combinations that go unused, and some very conventional uses that are now commonplace. And as analogue TV has gone away, so have some of the constraints that force one or another choice.

You could in fact transmit 21:9 in either of 720p or 1080i, and that’s what Netflix is more-or-less doing (note my comment about square vs rectangular pixels in the previous post).

Also noting that streaming services can get more density into a given bitrate than broadcasters for again a heap of good technical reasons. But all compressed video continues to improve.

26

I’ve already tried changing the TV settings with no difference.
If Netflix has seen fit to lock the content format why now? Previously I could change the aspect ratio to suit my preferences. As I still can on every other streaming platform I have. If it’s all about best viewing format for the particular show/movie then why have the other streaming services not done the same? Or will that also happen? Letterbox or pillar box or any sort of box that doesn’t fill the screen is something I really don’t enjoy, and as a consumer I especially dislike being dictated to by Netflix or LG as to how I watch TV! I did not ever find changing the aspect ratio to remove those black bars (as much as practicable) impinged on my viewing enjoyment but those wide black bars certainly do! And a google search shows I’m certainly not alone in that.
Personal preferences aside, and of course we’re all different ( and I’m definitely showing my dinosaur propensities no doubt), if one pays thousands for a “smart” TV and ongoing subscription costs (which are not inconsiderable) why do I not have the choice to view something as I wish? Isn’t that what a smart TV and streaming platforms are supposed to provide? A better viewing experience is what we’ve purportedly been sold.

Thanks to everyone for your help and time.

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27

Convention rules.

Nothing more to be said?

On the more interesting relationships, complex as they may appear.
I’m very familiar with an early model Panasonic HD digital video camera which uses a 1440x1080 pixel sensor to record a 16:9 aspect ratio. That’s without further discussion of whether it is saved in a raw format or to which of the available video codecs it is saved. Or how after editing the finished product is up scaled or down scaled etc and will replay on different screen formats. Remarkably the software and hardware usually retains round circles as round and not oval.

Letter boxing is the norm on the more traditional computer screens, pixel density independent.

28

That’s a really good article, with some valuable information. But I could pick some serious nits. He’s made a few sweeping statements that would have the standards people in a tizz in less time than one scan line.

Also his comments are parochially US-centric. The Japanese, who have had higher resolution over the air TV for yonks, and who pioneered 8k in the late 2000s, would disagree with some of the statements also. I certainly agree that 8k is in general not a sensible product for domesitc purposes, and it’s widely feared in broadcasting circles. It’s technically possible, has technical production challenges, And would most likely be of little (or, more likely, massively negative) commercial benefit.

And in Australia, nobody ever referred to 720p as “High Definition”. It was, at best, regarded as a mezzanine format. But it has its place.

29

That’s annoying, i’m sure. I’m away from my LG until tomorrow night, but I’ll check then to see if my TV can be made to overscan on demand.

To be fair, there might be non-technical reasons why Netflix has disabled aspect ratio controls for certain content. It might be a contractual requirement from the studio, for instance. Netflix might also reasonably believe that it’s a consumer’s right/responsibility to use the controls that are on the TV set to override the parameters.of the transmitted image. If any of that is the case, it would be nice for them to [be able to] tell you.

But if you really are unable to do anything to change the image to your liking, maybe console yourself with the rationalisation that you’re seeing what the Director intended? By expanding the picture to eliminate the black bars you lose about 25% of what’s on the frame of a cinemascope image. That’s a lot of picture to miss seeing. The killer could be hiding there, and you’d never know. :upside_down_face:

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30

I reckon you are spot on. I think Netflix have decided to display their cinematic content in the original wide screen format if wider than 16:9. No left or right cropping or pan and scan.
So you get the ‘original’ format. And on a 16:9 aspect ratio TV, which is the norm, you will get letterboxing.
Most free to air movies I watch have been processed into 16:9 format, and likewise DVDs I watch, but there is the occasional letterboxing. And these days pretty much all made for TV content is 16:9, so the whole screen is filled.

I have long ago ceased to notice content in original 4:3 aspect ratio that gets pillarboxed with black bars left and right.

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31

I’ve skimmed a lot of the replies. I am not sure if it’s not coming a sense that the FULL tv screen must be filled. I have a hatred of watching films made for a wide-screen ration on a full screen. It means that part of the image will be lopped off, probably on the sides (turning SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS into FIVE BRIDES FOR FIVE BROTHERS.) Your solution may simply be accepting that Netflix is giving you the FULL movie as it was conceived by the film’s creators. And many films and series are now being made in a wide-screen (letter-boxed) ration.

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32

Welcome @PeterGH,

Is there any suggestion the TV manufacturers will when looking for the next big reason for consumers to upgrade “seize the day”?

To note for those prepared to be at the bleeding edge ultra wide screen computer monitors have been around for some time. Optionally with a slightly curved wrap around screen for a more immersive experience. Partly a response to sitting closer than in a normal viewing environment, one does need to sit further away the wider a screen is.

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33

Yes, but those extra-wide monitors are to provide more screen area to display more open windows without overlapping. They are not for displaying extra-wide movies in full screen.

Also, extra-wide TVs would simply created the same problem. Most content would have to be displayed pillarboxed with black bars left and right, wasting the wide space, or cropped top and bottom to fit the whole screen.

The standard aspect ratio is pretty much 16:9 now, and if movie makers want use extra-wide formats, then at least they can realise the consequences and frame with that in mind.

34

I am not comfortable with the comment “16:9 is so passé” . Creative artists make a choice of image ratio when they make a film. Nowadays, they have the choice of the original Academy ratio of old movies, widescreen in various formats including CinemaScope. Although other factors may come to bear the creatives will choice a screen ratio that suits their story. Sometimes this will be 16:9. I can not imagine an author being criticised for writing a book that is 250 pages long because 250 pages is passé. Or a painter being criticised because of the canvas size. Or a composer being told that a four movement symphony is passé in these days of 4 minute pop songs. More important is to be happy that your TV can show an image in the ratio in which it was created. And if that means bars at the top and bottom of the screen, be happy because that probably means you are getting the full original image.

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35

For those consumers who have a liking for Hollywood, modern or classics. It’s a substantial catalogue that arguably offers entertainment values missing from many modern made for TV products.
Movies made for the cinema new and older with wide screen aspect ratios greater than 2:1. Hence the letter boxing. Whether the producers would agree their production values should be realigned to a narrower 16:9 aspect ratio? The theatres the product has traditionally first been viewed in are similarly aligned. Enough customers line up to make the ”blockbusters” worthwhile. How best to enjoy advert free at home?

It’s not uncommon for the marketing of new technology to deliver products we did not know we needed, but when available becomes essential to our daily routine.

For some happiness - An alternative might be to purchase a 16:9 aspect ratio TV or screen approx 30% larger than desired and accept the letterbox effect. Imperfection considered there will be no loss of side content while ensuring a more acceptable vertical image. Size of room and wall and budget also relevant.

Or one could invest in a quality digital projector and suitable reflective viewing screen. The illusion due to lack of visible framing sufficient to deliver the perfect experience scaled to suit the viewing space.

To note our home is relatively small, with the compromise not having the space or budget to go any larger than our existing TV. And yes it does by default letterbox Netflix made for cinema movies. No option evident to display otherwise, and until recently insufficient NBN speed to worry about streaming anything better than everyday iView.

36

Watching movies on TV, as presented by free to air channels, did one notice that at the start when opening credits had to be displayed, the picture was squished up horizontally, making the action thinner. Then the movie played. And all looks good, filling the whole screen.

But it was being cropped with far left or far right just not there. Or maybe pan and scanned by an editing process. One is not seeing the movie in it’s original content.

And then at the end credits, picture squished up again, because the text is wider than the TV standard width.

37

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/high-definition-video

720 was and is still referred to as HD (High Definition) in Australia, though 1080 can also be referred to as HD, the minimum requirement to be called HD is 720. I believe that TV services have changed to 1440 X 1080i or as some refer to it as 1080i (SBS is now 1080i as from 2014) and call it HD, it may be also broadcast as 1920 X1080i .

" HDTV may be transmitted in various formats:

  • 720p (1280 × 720p): 921,600 pixels
  • 1080i (1920 × 1080i) interlaced scan: 1,036,800 pixels (≈1.04 Mpx).
  • 1080p (1920 × 1080p) progressive scan: 2,073,600 pixels (≈2.07 Mpx).
    • Some countries also use a non-standard CTA resolution, such as 1440 × 1080i: 777,600 pixels (≈0.78 Mpx) per field or 1,555,200 pixels (≈1.56 Mpx) per frame".

Even the Federal Parliament referenced 720 OR 1080 as being HD. What most most consider as true FHD is 1920 X 1080. Most consider 1080p as superior to 1080i as using interlaced (i) means that only every second line is refreshed per frame, high speed action is better in progressive (p) mode than i mode.

From Lenovo in regards to the use of 720 OR 1080 being interchangeably called HD.

" What is high definition (HD)?

HD refers to a video resolution with a higher pixel count than standard definition (SD). HD videos have a minimum resolution of 1280x720 pixels, commonly known as 720p, but can also have a resolution of 1920x1080 pixels, also known as 1080p. This increased pixel count results in clearer and more detailed images and videos. HD has become the standard for television broadcasts, streaming services, and home entertainment devices, providing viewers with a more immersive and enjoyable viewing experience".

An Australian website that explains the usage of HD and FHD

Originally because of the bandwidth limitations most Australian HD channels broadcast using MPEG-2 compression (think back to the VHF days), now they use the MPEG-4 or H.264/AVC compressions and can accommodate the 1080 streams as DVB-T2 allows for a much higher bit rate. ABC TV when they moved to HD, originally streamed in 720. So plenty of references to HD being 720 in Australia.

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38

Thanks for the Fabulous article by Mr Meikleham. Exactly how I feel about those damn black bars!

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39

Sadly, some ( many in government ) did exactly that. This is just an example of what was being said around a decade ago:

I remember several online discussions ridiculing the Australian government for allowing 720p to be included within the definition of ‘High Definition’.

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40

Claudia,
I have been reading g this thread with interest. This was explained to me by the chap who installed our setup. Many/most of these pictures originate for the cinema which has a fairly wide but somewhat narrow presentation on the screen. If this is presented to your TV screen so you get to see what you would see in the cinema, then you get what shows in the picture you provided. If you change that then one of two things happen. Either aspects get distorted such as circles become ovals as asked by themaiz, or the height is spread to fill the screen but to keep the ratios correct you then loose the two edges of what used to be on the screen when in the cinema mode, as in your picture.
It makes sense to grey this option out as is the case with our Sony TV - we want to see the entire screen as we would if we were in the cinema.

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