I wonder what makes a dishwasher tablet/powder ‘eco’. Is it in some circumstances a marketing tool for those companies which have taken the effort to obtain some sort of ‘certification’ or endorsement from some eco-aligned organisation or what the manufacturer thinks is ‘eco’?
Some of the ingredients in the eco products have significant environmental impacts if released directly into a waterway, for example, but potentially pose no different risk to those non-eco labelled tablet waste water treated through a municipal waste water treatment system.
1,000 million percent agree! Thanks to Bob Katter!
It seems to be harder not easier to find products that are septic safe. Eco seems to have two alternate meanings?
One is that it is an environmental friendly product when used.
The second alternately how it was manufactured is the only part that is environmentally friendly.
Apologies, but no matter what a product claims we still don’t have a universal regulated requirement for proper environmental labelling of septic safe and compliant products. Although legally the responsibility for the environmental compliance or performance of septic and waste management on private properties rests with the landowner IE resident.
Just quick question on how dishwasher powders are tested, is powder added to both the main-wash cycle and the pre-wash cycle dispensers? is a pre-wash cycle part of the standard cycle used for testing?
I’m curious because this video suggests that a small amount of powder detergent in the pre-wash cycle dispenser significantly affects results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU
I have personally never thought about that, even when I used to use powder detergents, but they make an interesting case about the flexibility of powder detergents in being able to adjust dosage as well as being able to take advantage of detergent included in the pre-wash cycle.
I have used MIele and Siemens dishwashers, and each had a pre-rinse but neither a pre-wash (nor related dispenser). As the test is about the detergent not the machine, the process normalises everything possible using the manufacturers directions.
If a tester ‘free lanced’ by adding more (or less) detergent at whim it would create an unreproducible variable. Choice is usually clear that the recommended doses are often more than required for most detergents. With the popularity of tablets ‘measuring’ them is less likely than for those using powder or liquid who would have some variability no matter how large or small just from how they measure or fill, from load to load. The methods aim to use ‘the recommended doses’ not more or less using lab equipment.
I’ve read both articles you’ve provided and they don’t mention adding any detergent to the pre-wash detergent cup so I’m assuming this is not tested.
I think the pre-rinse and pre-wash step are the same function just with different names (the initial rinsing before the main wash cycle). In my dishwasher there are two compartments for detergent, one for the main wash and one for the pre-wash, with the expectation that there will be detergent in the pre-wash/pre-rinse cycle if using a powder.
Even though a pre-wash detergent compartment is not standard across dishwashers I think it might be a worthwhile test for comparison because powder detergents are testing so poorly, it could be a potentially overlooked variable which may significantly affect results since there may be the expectation some powder also goes into the pre-rinse.
I was thinking that too, though the thought of cost-savings by using less detergent or using powder instead of tablets is an ideal that piqued the interest of my frugal side. I’m using tablets currently and I am happy with the results, but powders are cheaper and I would be able to use less detergent since the standard dose is already more than enough - though I understand this would be difficult to test in a lab setting.
The video I linked before is a part 2 to another video with over 2 million views, where he explains his experiences in using powder detergent, do you think it could be worthwhile testing his hypothesis?
A ‘Dishwasher Detergent Review’ is to test detergents using lab techniques. There has to be a standardised test of the product rather than the method(s). I’ll agree mentioning ways to improve the ‘dishwasher experience’ would be interesting, but as a sidebar not the test. The video makes many interesting points, but focused on saving money/powder, it did not purport to compare the efficacy of the various powders on the market against like products, or against the tabs and pods he criticises for various reasons.
If a detergent performs well perhaps it might (or might not) perform better if double dosed, or half dosed, or put into a pre-wash, or ? Likewise one that cleans poorly would not be expected to clean better in comparison using the same testing criteria. At the end of the day any test report is a guide and place to start noting some products anecdotally work better than others in any specific make and model dishwasher.
Thus detergents are tested with lab-standard ‘dirty dishes’ using the manufacturers recommended doses in a consistent manner.
As I sometimes do, I’ll once again call on @airedale for his reply.
Hi there!
I must confess I’ve never seen (or at least never noticed) a dishwasher with a pre-wash component to a main cycle (though plenty of them have a rinse only cycle). We certainly don’t use one in our testing.
Just a note on testing - regardless of the type of detergent (powder, liquid or tablet) we use the manufacturers recommended dose, using the ‘normal’ program in the same dishwasher each time. Our lab-standard ‘dirty dishes’ are actually melamine tiles that have been very carefully prepared with individual soil types and they’re the same tiles used by dishwasher and detergent testers all around the world due to their consistency. We measure light reflectence before and after washing using a spectrophotometer to inform our scores, and we conduct multiple runs for each detergent and average the results.
On the subject of powders vs. tablets, we consistently find tablets perform better than powders, but they’re also significantly more expensive. I suspect because there’s higher profit margins for tablets the manufacturers are investing more heavily in R&D for tablets than they are for powders.
Just as an aside here, the reason many tablets have separate layers is to keep ingredients separate, which extends shelf life (bleaches and enzymes don’t get on well together), and they’re also designed so each element dissolves at a different rate - you want the enzymes to go first because they work best in colder water, and then the bleaches get activated at the hotter, middle part of a cycle. And of course you want the rinse aid to come in at the end. Of course, it’s not an exact science and we’ve found the layers in tablets will by and large dissolve at the same rate. And let’s not forget the marketing gimmickery of a dishwasher tablet that looks like a multi-layered cake.
With regard to adding a small amount of detergent to the pre-wash, we actually do this when we’re reconditioning our crockery for dishwasher testing (as you can imagine, we need to get every speck of soil off the plates before starting the next test). We’ll typically add detergent to the dispenser, but then pour some into the bottom of the tub as well so it’ll activate during the first rinse cycle, before the dispenser door pops open. While we haven’t measured the difference scientifically, anecdotally it does help. We would likely shy away from doing so because the main value in our testing is a comparison between different detergents, so we need a consistent, repeatable method. We also need to make sure everything doesn’t come out spotless, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to tell you anything - we need a range of different levels of cleanliness to rank order the detergents.
Another tip is if you’re using tablets, don’t put them in the dispenser at all - just throw them in. That gives them the best chance of fully dissolving early in the cycle so you’ve got more detergent at work for longer. This goes double if you’re using a short program, or you’re finding tablets aren’t fully dissolving.
I hope this helps.
Another thing to add is that yes, powders do give you flexibility in terms of dosage - this is especially helpful if you’re using a dish drawer, compact or benchtop dishwasher where a full tablet of detergent would be overkill.
I’ve been finding it difficult to find a happy medium with my Mini Dishwasher. I saw a guy on youtube had been breaking his tabs in half so I have been doing that, but I am finding that no matter which cycle I use, theres always a coating of soap powder left on various items. It seems to stick more readily to SS items. like knives and spoons. I had not tried halving the Finish tabs, only the Earth Choice ones I came to later. I never noticed any residue with the full Finish tabs… More experimentation to be done.
I was reading the related article courtesy of the links in the recent Choice Insider emails.
One comment is that ‘Ash says there are other downsides to using bad detergents. “Not only do you run the risk of your plates coming out dirty, some cheap and nasty detergents contain harsh abrasive agents that can actually dull or wear away your delicate glassware fairly rapidly,” he explains.’ The top rated one in the current test is cheap and has one of the higher pHs. It is unclear if it is one of the nasties, but.
From the buying guide 'rinse aid … helps to prevent the glaze on crockery being stripped away and glassware looking cloudy and scratched, which happens over time due to the high pH level in detergents….’
Then re cleaning my range hood filters, from the owner manual. 'You can do this by hand washing in warm soapy water, or by placing filters in the top rack of the dishwasher using a detergent of pH 8 or less. … Condari does not recommend the use of corrosive, caustic or acidic products, particulary industrial or citric products. Condari has experienced problems with many of the dishwashing detergents now on the market.
Particularly with the tablet type detergents as many come from overseas, which are made for a hard water environment. We have found that these detergents have a deleterious effect on the filters and the result is that the filters last for about 50 to 60 washes. This is equivalent to about 5 to 6 years life. With consistent dishwasher washing with virtually any tablet it looks like the referenced filters become unintentional consumables, albeit long term ones and not always at low cost.
While the Choice review shows the pH most are above 10 and some into the 11’s. Perhaps comments on the impacts of pH in the ratings would be value added, eg the higher the pH the harder on whatever is in the wash, and pH is related to cleaning power so there is a trade-of of sorts. Perhaps a ‘harshness rating’ to accompany pH would be value added to highlight it?
Hi @PhilT , that’s a good suggestion - we (and by we I mean I) sometimes forget that things like pH aren’t necessarily widely understood.
Speaking of understanding, it’s mine that pH levels aren’t really related to water hardness - dishwashers in areas with particularly hard water can benefit from the use of dishwasher ‘salt’ to help soften the water, and users should be aware of the potential for more rapid limescale buildup.
And in terms of dishwasher detergent nasties, high alkalinity (pH) isn’t the only problem, particularly for cheaper detergents that can rely more heavily on harsh abrasives which can strip away the delicate intricacies of your crockery just as readily as they strip away food - it’s a bit like sand blasting your delicate stemware. Higher quality detergents tend to rely more on high quality formulations and less on this mechanical action, so they tend to be less harsh on delicate items.
This isn’t straightforward. The salts that cause hardness are mostly carbonates and bicarbonates which both raise the pH of aqueous solutions. However the effects of hardness are due to the metal ions (cations) not the carbonates (anions) that raise the pH.
So adding washing soda (sodium carbonate) can reduce hardness by forcing the offending metal ions (eg calcium, Ca++) out of solution. Washing soda also raises pH and is found in many washing powders. So it is true that pH does not directly cause hardness as you could alter pH when there are no problematic cations present and it would not change the hardness. However pH changes are important when those cations are present as pH in part determines their solubility and hence their effect on soaps and detergents.
All the reviews say “use tablets” or “put the tablet in the base of the washer”.
If the reviewers read the actual manuals they would see that proper cycles require 2 doses of detergent: a small dose during pre-wash and a larger dose during the main wash cycle. Some dishwashers have a container that’s split into 2 (one exposed to waterflow and the other watertight) while others - like mine - tell you to put about a tablespoon of powder on the door to fall into the washer for the pre-wash cycle.
Since I read the dang manual rather than blindly following online reviews, my dishes have been perfect even with “cheap” cleaners.
There’s a reason why the main detergent compartment is watertight; it’s so that the soap doesn’t get used during the pre-wash and then rinsed away. The advice of the Choice (and similar) reviews to “just put the soap at the bottom of the machine” is the reason why soap makers have to make their chemicals so harsh as well as to include harder to dissolve coatings to protect the soap from the pre-wash. It’s also why rinse-aid has suddenly become a must even if you don’t have heavy water.
CHOICE: Please read the manuals and test the products properly.
I might be corrected but my understanding is tablets are formulated for the components to dissolve at different rates during the wash cycle and it should only be liquids or powders that should require multiple dosers in any case.
@airedale might comment on your as well as my post.
Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been following Choice for a long time and subscribed a couple of years back. Top resource
@airedale you are correct but this is the tablet manufacturers having to alter their products to the fact that they are being used incorrectly. Since not all dishwashers are equal, it means that some may dissolve too much and lose their potency whereas others might not dissolve enough during the pre-wash.
As a completely subjective, personal test I compared a “top rated” tablet used both ways (i.e. once in the soap tray and once at the bottom of the machine vs. “decent (i.e. Finish)” powder on its own used properly (half-fill the reservoir and a small amount on the door. The powder - which is far cheaper - did a far superior job.
I get the best results by using a tablet in the reservoir (usually a “decent” brand that happens to be on sale when I buy them) with the powder on the door. It’s very cheap and always produces perfect dishes
I can’t find on the website where it indicates this…it would be helpful if you could include a link.
In years gone by, many dishwashers didn’t have detergent compartments and dishwashing powder/concentrate was placed on floor of the diswasher/on a specially marked area at the bottom of the door. Modern dishwashers have dishwasher detergent dispensing compartments.
Looking at a number of leading tablet manufacturers, they recommend that the tablets be placed (firstly) in the dispensing compartment. These include:
Finish: For best results place one tablet in the dry dispenser.
Earth Choice: Smiply insert tablet directly into the dishwasher dispenser. IF TABLET DOES NOT FIT IN THE DISPENSER, place in the bottom of the dishwasher.
Fairy: Place a capsule into dispenser drawer and close immediately.
Somat: Place cap dirctly into the chamer of your dishwasher.
EcoStore: Please one tablet into the disperser or cutlery basket, according to the dishwasher manufacturer’s instructions.
Woolworths: …place one tablet per wash in the machine dispenser
Note: I haven’t checked Coles or Aldi products as it is difficult to enlarge product labelling on the screen to read the directions. Woolworths, which many of the above links are, allows this to occur.
All the Tablet companies say that they can be used because it legitimises their product and the machine vendors have had to adapt. I’ve just checked Miele which clearly has a detergent bypass tray to allow for pre-rinse as well as Bosch (my brand based on Choice recommendation) which does not but says “When using washing powder, you can apply some of this cleaning agent to the inside of the appliance’s door.”.
Both vendors are careful not to advise against using tablets but have caveats (e.g. Miele “Do not use tabs with the “Quick” programme, as they will not dissolve properly”).
In terms of dishwashers not having detergent compartments, I’m 50 years old and my parents had a dishwasher when I was a young child. I can’t honestly remember ever seeing a unit without a detergent compartment. They may have existed (or still exist) but I’ve never personally encountered one.
Let me be clear: I don’t think tablets are bad and I do use them as part of my wash cycle. The point I was trying to make is that optimal results with heavily soiled dishes CANNOT be achieved using tablets (unless you use 2 - one in the machine and one in the reservoir - which is very wasteful and expensive). Tablets are clean and convenient but they discourage the correct use of the machine. My simple solution is (as stated above) to use a tablet for the main wash and a small amount of powder for the - pre-rinse. I get spectacular results with less expensive tablets and a container of powder lasts me over a year.
Please re-do some of these tests using the MACHINE vendors’ recommendations rather than the PRODUCT vendors’ and I think you’ll see significantly different (and almost universally better) outcomes. If I’m wrong, I’ll humbly bow out of the conversation but everyone I have suggested this to face-to-face has agreed it’s provided them with much better results.
