COVIDSafe app scepticism

[Almac]

Re your Q4 & Q5,
The app does not distinguish between people who are permitted or not permitted to be out or close or same family or any of those things - it is just establishing a means of the Health Dept ‘contact tracers’ advising you if someone you have been close to has tested positive to COVID.

[Drop_Bear]

@mark_m

I started this topic for those doing the right thing.

What is the right thing?

@Drop_Bear

We already have effective contact tracing. If the app works as advertised, then it might enhance the effectiveness. There’s an if and a might in there that should be considered with the buts .

[mark_m]

[quote=“Drop_Bear, post:31, topic:20587”]
What is the right thing ?

Putting your trust in how best to respond to COVID-19 with our leadership and best advice of the Chief Medical Officers.

I care more for the potential benefits of being able to deliver better contact tracing.

It’s your decision to not follow. Whether my moral judgement is the same as yours, it’s not a point for argument. Some might choose an old second hand car with just seatbelts. I prefer a newer model with the seat belt and airbag.

If you have not had a go, down load and install the App, there is little more that need be said.

Note:
Do we have effective contact tracing? We all know there are ongoing numbers of cases of Covid-19 where the source has not been identified.

[Drop_Bear]

@mark_m

trust in how best to respond

If that’s the right thing then not trusting is, by inference, wrong. Who decides right and wrong? It begins to sound a bit totalitarian.

@Drop_Bear

As I said, the issue would be less substantial had government not so successfully destroyed trust.

@mark_m

Do we have effective contact tracing?

Do we not?

@mark_m

We all know there are ongoing numbers of cases of Covid-19 where the source has not been identified.

Some evidently believe that a technological fix can achieve perfection. As I said:

@Drop_Bear

If the app works as advertised, then it might enhance the effectiveness.

The system is already effective. Otherwise, how many of the sources of infection would we know?

Questions about the reliability of Bluetooth proximity data are raised in this piece. From one of the references:

@Professor Dali Kaafar

“What frustrates me the most in this sort of debate is putting this as a dilemma between ‘helping people’ and ‘privacy’,” he said. “It’s really very bad to be positioning this as if people who care about privacy are selfish, while the others are okay.”

[Drop_Bear]

From Facebook:

I’m deeply worried about our government’s behaviour. By all that I see, the COVIDSafe app is unlikely to work as advertised. Bluetooth proximity detection is neither accurate enough nor reliable enough. Even if the app worked, it’s unlikely to substantially improve contact tracing.

So why is Morrison pushing it so hard?

If I was a wannabe dictator with a background in marketing, my next move might be to report that the app isn’t improving contact tracing. Of course, I’d blame the people who haven’t installed it.

Then make it compulsory.

And add GPS tracking (which also isn’t accurate enough to be useful for contact tracing).

Then round up everyone who doesn’t have the app active on their 'phone and put them in work camps. With signs over the gates saying cute thing like “work sets you free”.

A bit conspiratorial, but Morrison has been characterised as a control freak. At best, COVIDSafe is a form of security theatre, or so it seems.

Security theater may not always have real monetary costs but by definition provides no security benefits, or the benefits are so minimal as to not be worth the cost.

[edit]

@mark_m

Using an app - selfless?

Pandering to government marketing - gullible?

@mark_m

the right thing

Declaring one thing “right” (and, by inference, any other wrong) - manipulative?

[benhelps]

Unto each their own. I’ve used the digital licence since NSW offered it, as I’m more likely to forget my licence/wallet/CC than my phone. But it should absolutely be an optional thing. I’ve had people try to photocopy my digital licence by putting my phone in a photocopier

[Fred123]

@benhelps

I’m more likely to forget my licence/wallet/CC than my phone

When i went out this morning. I went to call my wife. No mobile. I did not forget my wallet though.

[SueW]

I’ve deleted, reinstalled, and just deleted again. Until they get their shit together and tell us what the privacy rules are (because apparently they havent actually been finalised), I am not going there. I thought it was all done and dusted. Apparently, it isnt.

Coronavirus app tracing capability not yet operational, despite 4 million...

[phb]

@SueW

tell us what the privacy rules are (because apparently they havent actually been finalised)

The privacy rules have been defined, see the legislation link here…

COVIDSafe app scepticism

This is the legislation… https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L00480 There is legislation in place…refer Part 2 of the above legislative determination in relation to COVIDSafe data management.

The issue appears that the States are responsible for managing notifications when there is a confirmed contact…and yet to set up the systems to do this. It should be relatively straight forward to do…and if one waits for this to be sorted contacts between now and later installing the app will be missed (up to 21 days). There could have been close contact with someone with COVID-19 in this time, and one would not know if contact tracing was not occurring. This poses a risk, particularly if one is in a high group or comes in contact with high risk individuals (such as elderly family or community members)

[mark_m]

@SueW

thought it was all done and dusted. Apparently, it isnt.

Roll out in progress, if you read further the ABC news item.

“What we’re doing is making sure that the operations are going to work appropriately and safely, but also [making] sure that the people in the contact-tracing facilities in the states and territories are trained on how to use the app, and how to use it appropriately.”

He said the app was already logging users’ close contacts, and that information could be accessed at a later date.

> “That facility is still to go live, that will be happening during the current week,” Professor Kidd said.

"But the important thing is that if people have downloaded the app and they have it running in the background on their phone, it’s already gathering details of people you’ve been in close contact with.

[benhelps]

The app has probably barely been in circulation long enough to capture any relevant cases yet, though hopefully if it does successfully help identify potentially affected people (particularly those missed by the standard tracing methods) it will get well publicised.

And hopefully by then tracers will have been granted access and training enough to make use of the system/data.

[Fred123]

After the stupidity I witnessed yesterday, I am not sure how much the app will help.

I went to our local shopping centre yesterday morning, and whilst waiting in the queue at The Reject Shop, a young female persisted in standing right behind me, and as soon as I moved away, she got right behind me again, despite her partner trying to tell her not to.

When I finally got to the checkout, she still folowed me despite the signs telling people to wait until called.

I then went to Woollies and had to get past around 10 idiots who were gathered in a circle right beside each other.

After lunch, I went to Bunnings to get some fencing materials and pulled up in the lane with the fence rails where there was a Landrover right beside what I needed and a ute in front of it whose driver was loadind fence rails.

After a long time, a scruffy individual pushing a shopping trolley returned to the Landrover with 2 blister packs and a tin of paint.

This grub had obviously chosen to park in the trade section instead of outside so as to avoid having to enter throught the main entrance in the centre of the store front and exit throught the Garden Centre door, despite having had to walk to the middle of the store to get the paint.

He probably walked further than he would have if he did the right thing but his attitude was obviously stuff everyone else.

Having got the fence rails and fence pickets, I proceeded to the fastener aisle where, despite Bunnings signs stating only 4 persons in an aisle, there were 6 adults and 2 kids.

A Bunnings staff memeber entered and spoke to the pair of idiots with the kids who were just browsing and left without buying anything.

Whilst I and several customers were waiting to enter the aisle, another couple with 4 kids walked past, ensuring they got as close as possible to everyone queued up.

What sort of morons would take their kids to a crowded Bunnings and expose them and everyone else to possibly being contaminated.

Perhaps instead of the app, the Governmant should simply introduce compulsory IQ tests and all the morons who score less than 10 are confined to home.

[PhilT]

Up pops up a superficial comparison of what other countries are doing.

Coronavirus apps: how Australia's Covidsafe compares to other countries'...

[Drop_Bear]

@PhilT

a superficial comparison of what other countries are doing

We might never know if the app actually works (but stand by to be regaled with assertions about its glorious successes anyway). If it works at all, we might never know if it improved outcomes beyond what could have been achieved by traditional contact tracing (but politicians will exploit it to their advantage anyway).

No country can claim the app itself as the reason for any success in slowing the spread of coronavirus, because none has been running long enough, Buckland said.

“To be honest, we might never know,” he said.

“We will either be in world A or world B and we will never be able to compare the data between world A or world B.

“It’ll be very hard to answer questions about how impactful it will be, but clearly it won’t be worse than not having it.”

That last?

If the app actually does any of what we’re being told, how might the data be exploited?

How the COVIDSafe data could be used

if the entire dataset were to become centrally located and accessible, it would likely be of great interest to governments and other organisations.

Under current Australian law, only state and territory health officers tracing coronavirus contacts will have access to the data COVIDSafe collects and, even then, only parts of it, under very strict conditions.

But Kaafar says that if the security provisions changed, the COVIDSafe data could be crossmatched with other personal data, including open-source information about personal activities posted on social media sites.

That could provide a very accurate and revealing portrait of Australians’ movements, who they spend time with, precisely when and ultimately even where.

“You could, essentially, absolutely build a social relationship graph of exactly who is meeting with whom and who is really in close contact with whom,” Kaafar tells The Saturday Paper .

Under a new federal government biosecurity determination, it would be illegal to use the information in this way.

But Kaafar argues there should be public consideration of the implications if it could be accessed.

Our government would never change the laws/regulations/administrative instruments/whatever. No, perish the thought! Never happen.

[edit]
And again: it probably doesn’t work.

There are many reasons why covid-19 contact-tracing apps may not work

[Albie]

Hi @Drop_Bear, I understand you privacy concerns. Whilst I try and take reasonable and sensible precautions I feel as though I am swimming against the tide. Foe example this site tracks or holds the following information:

1. The date you joined the forum
2. The time you last posted to the forum
3. The number of times you have been “seen”. I don’t know what that means!
4. The number of views you have had
5. Your email address
6. The devices you have most recently used to access the site. Not overly accurate as it thinks I have a Mac PC but I only use mobile devices. These are listed as well.
7. Whether you are currently active or not.
8. Your location. Again not overly accurate as I live 10-20 kms away. Maybe they are tracing the servers.

On an iPad you can find this information tapping on your icon in the RH corner. Then tap on your user name, then preferences.

So what it comes down to is that the digital world is following you. So the rules I follow are:

1 Don’t download apps if you are not confident they will protect your privacy (depending on the information they request)
2 Have a least 2 email addresses so you can use one for sites you don’t fully trust
3 Minimise the sites give you address to. Eg if writing to the your local council you have to bite the bullet there.
4. Never give your correct birth date irrespective of the site. MyGov is the only exception that comes to mind.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. I usually try to be a bit more concise.

[asantilli]

Tin hat brigade (only 40yrs in IT) person here! (1) No source code, despite numerous gov “promises”. Why? (2) No enabling privacy/security legislation, despite numerous gov “promises”. Why? (3) Stuart Robert. (4) ROBODEBT, among other egregious AUS government missues of data supplied for one purpose, used for another purpose. (5) Foreign developer with a shonky/less than truthful intelligence background. (6) Amazon servers. (7) US laws, overriding AUS laws. (8) Not mandatory. (9) In isolation & won’t be going out to the pub or anywhere else until 40% of the Aussie sheeple comply with Morrison’s demands. (10) Won’t download, install, register, the app, nor turn on Bluetooth for it. If necessary will leave my phone at home. (11) Morrison et al can KMA! (12) HELL NO.

[asantilli]

Forgot # (13) Shonky AUS gov has usuable legislation on the books to force any app developer in AUS to insert secret backdoor(s) in apps so that any AUS gov entity can secretly access your device (phone, pad, computer, network).

[phb]

@asantilli

No enabling privacy/security legislation, despite numerous gov “promises”. Why?

Where? The COVIDSafe has specific privacy legislation. It was outlined here.

Australia and the states also have Privacy legislation. The Commonwealth one is here. State ones can be found on the relevant state government legislation websites.

@asantilli

Foreign developer with a shonky/less than truthful intelligence background.

@asantilli

Shonky AUS gov has usuable legislation on the books to force any app developer in AUS to insert secret backdoor(s) in apps so that any AUS gov entity can secretly access your device (phone, pad, computer, network).

Can you provide more details on this as you seem to have more information about COVIDSafe than that in the public domain.

@asantilli

US laws, overriding AUS laws.

No, this is not the case. There has been some clauses in free trade agreements which give some rights which may seen to conflict with Australian legislation, however, whether these conflicts occur has not been tested in court and are only hypotheses. Some have been tested like Australia’s mandatory cigarette packaging, and the courts have upheld the Australian government policy and relevant legislation.

Australia is a sovereign country and any law in another country has no effect on Australia.

[postulative]

@phb

Australia is a sovereign country and any law in another country has no effect on Australia.

So if something happens in Australia that is unlawful in another jurisdiction that jurisdiction cannot take action? This would immediately strike Australia’s ‘sex tourism’ laws off the books.

More broadly, Australia is part of the 5 Eyes (14/21/however many eyes) group of intelligence sharing countries. One of the interesting disclosures from Edward Snowden was that members of this group are using each other to get information on their own citizens. So for instance US intelligence agencies are not permitted to spy on US citizens. How to get around that? Well, they do it pretty well on their own, but they can also receive intelligence information collected by other countries - so they are not spying on US citizens but still get the end result.

@phb

Can you provide more details on this as you seem to have more information about COVIDSafe than that in the public domain.

This is part of that famous ‘gotta pass it by Christmas’ legislation that the Labor Party waved through Parliament with a promise to ‘fix it later’ in December 2018 rather than looking soft on ‘baddies’ in the 2019 election. It is not particularly relevant to the COVIDSafe app given that the government is designing the app and so does not need to pressure anyone into compromising security.