Buying ex-business and ex-government PC/Laptop from auctions and resellers - an interesting problem

[grahroll]

Volume licencing used in Government or businesses is not the underlying licence. That underlying one is either the OEM or purchased retail licence. Volume licences are upgrade licences and must have an underlying qualifying operating system licence.

From MS on this (and this goes all the way back to Windows XP)

"Microsoft Volume Licensing programs only offer upgrade licenses for the Windows client operating
system.

You cannot buy a Microsoft Volume Licensing upgrade license without having a licensed copy of a qualifying desktop
PC operating system installed on your device."

The idea that a secondhand PC from a Government or a business because they used Volume licencing of some type, does not have an underlying qualifying OS licence is incorrect. These days this OEM or Retail licence is not on a sticker but is either stored in the UEFI and/or it is stored online in MS databases. On reinstallling the OS the licence can be retrieved as the Hardware ID (HWID) is used to identity the qualified licence. If the HWID is sufficiently altered before attempting to re-licence the machine then it may be difficult to reapply the licence (for ex Govt/Business PCs this is an very unlikely outcome as usually only the software has been wiped and no hardware alterations are usually made).

[Gregr]

Typically organizations will install the OS off an image on a server. Once the image is installed and OS running, the PC is connected to the network, and activated by providing the licence key.
This key is common to many PCs, and specific to the organization.

I hardly think that an organization would divulge this key to a buyer of a wiped and disposed of PC.

So a new install of Windows would require activation using a new key. Which requires a new licence.

If you buy a new PC with OEM Windows installed, you have paid for the licence, and it just needs activation using the licence key provided when you receive it.

If you buy a copy of Windows to install, you have paid for the licence, and activation is free with a specific key supplied.

If you want to reactivate a PC previously activated, you need to supply the original key.

So factor in the cost of a new licence if obtaining a second-hand PC that needs Windows reinstall.

[grahroll]

Read the MS info, all PC client machines have to have an installed licenced OS before applying a VLK of whatever type. The VLK process checks to see that a valid OS key already exists, regardless of whether an image is applied or not prior to installing the VLK. Win 8.1, Win 10 and Win 11 store this key in UEFI, then if an organisation applies a VLK that is stored in the registry but does not remove the OEM or Retail key stored in the UEFI. If a retail key is used to first licence the PC, this is stored on MS servers in a HWID database as well as the UEFI. If a business buys an OEM machine that key is never lost and it is not specific to the organisation that purchased it. It is a HP, DELL, or whomever the OEM is, key. Wipe the drive and the key is not lost, I have done this type of reinstall many, many times and it has ever been thus. The OEM key is however set to that machine and is generally not transferable to another machine, a retail key may be moved from one machine to another but that also means that the activation on the old machine is removed as a consequence and it’s entry in the HWID database is removed.

Just one of the many entries about OEM keys that can be found online that explain this

“PC manufacturers like HP, Dell, Asus, etc., offer the Windows OS with a built-in Product Key that can be activated right away. This is called as the Original Equipment Manufacturer or OEM key. It comes programmed into your PCs. This embedded product key is stored in the NVRAM of the BIOS/EFI on the motherboard. It allows a user to re-install Windows on that PC any number of times. However, since the key is locked onto the motherboard of a PC, the user cannot use it on another PC. Having said that, there’s virtually no difference between OEM or retail versions. Both are full versions of the operating system, and thus, include all the features, updates, and functionality that one can desire”.

So no it doesn’t need a new key, and these days unless you buy a Retail key you don’t see the OEM key, that OEM is viewable but is not apparent to a user as there is no sticker, even Retail Win 11 has no sticker these days. It is just a printed on the DVD, or on a piece of paper, key. Since Win 8.1 this has been the practice of MS in regards to keys. Reactivation may be required if the HWID is changed by large changes to the PC, e.g. a new motherboard is installed. In Win 7 this was more touchy in that a change to RAM could create a request for reactivation but in Win 10 and Win 11 this is much more forgiving of changes. MAC address and similar are changes that can impact activation status.

If say you replace a motherboard on an system you have activated and you have linked the HWID (the digital licence is linked to your MS account), you can easily go in and transfer the activation to the upgraded system. So if a business has wiped the OS and software from a PC that uses a HWID hash to store that data, then as long as the new owner does not alter the hardware to such an extent that the HWID is changed, then they can reinstall the Windows to that machine and it will be re-activated when it goes online. If it is an OEM key, then choosing the ‘I don’t have a key’ option will pull the OEM key from the UEFI and use it when the machine is next online to activate the PC. After the new activation and ensuring it is linked to their MS account, then the user can go as far as they want changing hardware and then re-activate again.

When buying an ex government or business PC that had been originally licenced using Win 8.1 onward you don’t need to have a key in your hand unless you have made enough changes to the hardware that the HWID is changed before you reactivated the machine. Indeed you can install LINUX (or another OS) first off, then wipe it, then install DOS (or another OS), then wipe it and install LINUX again (or another OS) and so on, then finally you could install Win 10 (if it had Win 8.1 or Win 10 originally) or Win 11 (if it had Win 8.1, Win 10 or Win 11 originally) and as long as no major Hardware changes had been made it will re-activate when it goes online. If it had been Win 7 licenced originally then you will need the OEM or Retail key from the sticker on the box to first install Win 10 (you don’t need to install Win 8.1 first) and then you can move to Win 11. No need for a Win 10 key, or somewhat unnecessarily you could buy a Win 10 or Win 11 key and do the same using the Retail key you purchased and avoid having to install Win 10 first before moving to Win 11.

So in almost all cases of reinstalling Win 8.1 or Win 10 or Win 11 after purchasing secondhand OEM ex business or ex government PCs there is no need to factor in a new licence key purchase. If it was a PC made by another person and had a retail key applied, then if the original owner had transferred the activation to a new machine before selling the old one, then the old one will need a new key. If the Retail key was not transferred to a new machine then no new key will be needed.

[Gregr]

A very long winded and technical dissertation on Windows licensing.

It just goes to show that license requirements can be complicated.

As I said in a plain English manner, if you were to buy a second-hand PC that was once running Windows, and now has been wiped, an install of an operating system will be required. If Windows, then as it is a licensed product, and not free, some sort of activation would be required if it would run past a trial period.

If some evidence remained that the PC had been running Windows, ie, not wiped, then it is not an OS install, it is a reinstall to recover the files.

You need to factor the cost of probably a new license if the PC has been properly wiped.

That is on top of will the hardware support a current version of Windows install, and will registry hacks to allow that be ignored in the future for maintenance releases and upgrades?

[grahroll]

@Gregr

So a new install of Windows would require activation using a new key. Which requires a new licence.

@Gregr

So factor in the cost of a new licence if obtaining a second-hand PC that needs Windows reinstall.

@Gregr

If you want to reactivate a PC previously activated, you need to supply the original key.

@Gregr

You need to factor the cost of probably a new license if the PC has been properly wiped.

No you don’t need to buy a new licence or supply a key if the drive has been wiped (even to defence standards). It has nothing to do with the drive being wiped, it is not like with XP or Win 7 or Win 8. Since 8.1 it is different and saying you need a new licence because the drive has been wiped is incorrect. A fresh install of Windows and going online in almost every case is all that is needed for the OS to be activated.

@postulative

Not a chance. A government entity will have its own corporate licensing, which allows for multiple machines. It will also deploy its own build of Windows, locking down settings to secure the machines as much as possible and to provide for the other proprietary software it installs.

@Gregr

Most businesses and government would have been using MS software under corporate licencing.

@person

Since these are ex-government, maybe the government should kick Microsoft into touch and make it the law that a licence must be allowed to be transferred when the PC itself is transferred, at least where the original licence was to the government. (Microsoft might respond of course by limiting or eliminating licences of this nature for any future purchases.)

The OEM embedded key is transferred with the PC as it is contained not in software on the machine’s disk but is held in the hardware of the motherboard. Regardless of what Volume Licencing was applied after, the hardware key remains unaltered. If a retail key was used a machine specific hash is stored on MS hardware, if the drive is completely wiped and Windows is installed fresh then when the PC goes online the hash is checked by the OS and Windows is reactivated.

Further, the requirements for a PC before any Volume Licencing is applied is that it must have an installed licenced copy of a desktop PC operating system, as I quoted from MS previously and requote here for clarity.

@grahroll

"Microsoft Volume Licensing programs only offer upgrade licenses for the Windows client operating
system.

You cannot buy a Microsoft Volume Licensing upgrade license without having a licensed copy of a qualifying desktop PC operating system installed on your device."

This existing licence key is saved, and available for the next purchaser even if the drive is wiped as it is not stored on the disk. So a fresh install of Windows and going online will use this hardware saved information to activate the new install of Windows.

@person

However it is more the licence to use Microsoft Windows than anything else that should survive a sale.

It does these days, I am not discussing the upgraded Volume Licencing key, but the key the PC is manufactured with and this key isn’t like when the key was stored in the registry such as with Win 7, Win 8, or XP. It remains and survives in the motherboard UEFI hardware regardless of Volume Licencing activation that has occurred. The most common reasons for a failure to activate (and they are fairly rare ones in the amount of times they are a problem) is when a significant hardware change has been made and the key is lost (change of motherboard) or the hash produced because of the changes does not match the hash stored on the MS activation database somewhere out there in the World.

If it is a physical Win 7 or Win 8 Sticker then that key can be used to do a fresh install of Win 10, then if the PC is fairly current (within 5 years old) then there should be no issue updating to Win 11. If it is a Win 7 machine, it is very likely much older than 5 years, so it should support Win 10 but Win 11 is hit and miss (more likely miss unless Registry additions are made).

[postulative]

@grahroll

This embedded product key is stored in the NVRAM of the BIOS/EFI on the motherboard.

That’s potentially annoying - some of us upgrade our computers from time to time and part by part. Then again, Microsoft has not been treating home use of its operating systems as a profit centre for ages, so it is generally pretty easy to find an official free download (except when you want the Professional features, and even those licenses are reasonably priced).

I know Microsoft used to have something monitoring how many pieces of hardware had changed, and once had to ring them (obviously decades ago) to reactivate my Windows licence. Having the licence tied to the motherboard restricts the ability to upgrade the central part of one’s PC.

@grahroll

install DOS

I think I still have the disks somewhere - I definitely have the manual that came with MS-DOS 6.0.

[PhilT]

@postulative

Having the licence tied to the motherboard restricts the ability to upgrade the central part of one’s PC.

MS defines the mainboard (apparently the more polite term these days) as ‘the licensed computer’. It affects OEM but not retail Windows versions but if a mainboard fails there is a way to ‘move’ an OEM license.

If the mainboard is replaced because it is defective you do not need to acquire a new operating system license for the PC as long as the replacement mainboard is the same make/model or the same manufacturer’s replacement/equivalent, as defined by the manufacturer’s warranty.

The demise of the mainboard is effectively the end of the computer re MS OEM licensing.

[Gregr]

But the operating system is on disk, not on the mainboard.

So replacing the mainboard to upgrade it to new CPU, or more and faster RAM, or more support for peripherals does not mean an OS reinstall. Maybe just some driver upgrades to use the new hardware.

One is not going through the licence activation process again.

My recollection is it has to be both a different mainboard and disk with the OS on it for it to be considered a PC that is not the original licenced one.

[PhilT]

@Gregr

My recollection is it has to be both a different mainboard and disk with the OS on it for it to be considered a PC that is not the original licenced one.

While retail licenses are flexible and can be used on whatever machine one wants, it might be best to ‘upgrade knowledge’ re an OEM license.

oemsoftwarelicensingrulesandrestrictions.pdf

[Gregr]

Thankyou. It’s been a while since I used to build and upgrade PCs with Windows.
And my recent installs of Win10 have been using volume licencing.

Nevertheless, any second hand PC I acquired would have Linux installed on it make it work, not Windows. Got two of them.

My one existing Win10 OEM laptop, when replaced, would probably be preinstalled with Win11 and that’s that.

[grahroll]

If you have saved the digital licence to your MS account, you can change multiple parts and move the licence to the upgraded system. So, if buying a secondhand ex Govt/Business PC it is important that a user activates the PC and ensures they use a MS account to store the digital licence (they can use a local account when normally using the PC, the MS account is used so that the digital licence is saved). Then do upgrades and use the digital licence stored on the MS account to move to the upgraded PC. It should not be upgraded before it is activated the first time.

Sometimes the activation process still requires a phone call to MS, this is rare and most activation moves due to upgrades are self service.

In a MS account all the devices that are registered with MS’s database are shown.Some of my list of devices from my account (as I have none requiring a move/reactivation of a licence I can’t show the process to do so)

[JJ01]

Tested license activation on new OS installations on old PCs and found:
If the PC had a valid Windows OS license, a new OS installation on an empty hard drive did not require any further activation or any other validation from Microsoft. The installation process will install the type of Windows that matches the license key found in the mother board (BIOS). You can upgrade from 32bit to 64bit with no problems.

I did this on 13 and 7-year-old PCs the results were the same. Downloaded Windows 10 and created a bootable USB and installed the OS on completely empty hard drives.

• PC 13yrs old : a DIY build with Legacy BIOS (Gigabyte) originally with Win7 Home Premium 32bit, last year upgraded to Win10 Home 32bit. For the new OS installation I replaced the hard drives with a single reformatted HDD and attempted an upgrade from 32bit to 64bit. The installation was straight forward, licensing activation was done by automatic, picking it up from the BIOS. A fully licensed Win10 Home 64bit was installed. Didn’t expect that from a PC that old.
• PC 7yrs old: A HP business desktop PC, arrived with a completely wiped hard drive i.e. no OS. Installed Win10, the results were almost the same as previous, no activation required it was all automagic. The installation process found a Win10 Pro 64bit license in the BIOS and installed that as the OS.

Notes:

• Plenty of HowTo info on Youtube for this stuff.
• Bootable Win10 created using Rufus.
• 13yr old PC – had to use Legacy BIOS with MBR hard drive.
• 7yr old PC – had the option of Legacy BIOS or UEFI, I used UEFI. The PC had TPM2 but Windows still refused an upgrade to Win11, it complains about the CPU model.
• UEFI or Rufus requires a GPT hard drive, converting from MBR to GPT is trivial but requires a method of connecting the hard drive to a PC/laptop to do it.
• I was thinking about moving the 13yr old license to a virtual machine. According Microsoft documentation the OEM license dies with the PC.
• A note for business and people reselling PCs and the like. I checked the ex-MSP PC to see if they had done a thorough job of wiping the hard drive, they had. Software for recovering data from corrupt and inadequately cleaned/wiped drives is relatively cheap. If you don’t wipe disks correctly it could get embarrassing.
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