I don’t have much luck with orientation, do I?
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The first shot shows a composite timber, this is made by gluing smaller bits together. It saves money as off-cuts and smaller logs can be used instead of larger planks that have no joins but are more expensive. The end joins in particular (the saw-tooth bits) are very obvious as the image shows so this approach is often restricted to furniture and fittings that are painted. If the sample that you were shown was solid timber then the vendor has failed the test that the goods they supply must match the showroom example provided.
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A couple of comments on the photos:
The timber with the wavy joint is finger jointed (see above photo). Finger jointed is commonly used to join pieces of timber, especially where the section of timber needed is long and the raw timber contains imperfections (such as knots in pine or where the timber grain creates a weakness and it removed). It is very common in house timbers such as skirting, door jams or other timbers which can be long. The joint is glued and is such that it still had good strength. When finishing with paint, after sanding the finger joint shouldn’t be seen beneath the paint.
Nail holes typically are filled by the person doing the timber finishing…a painter who will use colour tinted putty/filler to try and match the timber colour if timber left natural/stained so the nail holes are less noticeable. If you chose to finish (paint, oil or varnish) the timber, filling the wholes would normally be your responsibility.
The minor gap in the corner mitre joint (above photo is a mitre joint and it is your third row right photo) would also be like the nail holes…filled with a filler/tinted filler prior to finishing. Again, this would be the painter/finisher’s responsibility. Unless the saw used to cut the mitre is very new and true, it can be difficult to get a perfect joint and hence a slight mismatch. This can be hidden in finishing.
The nail holes and mitre joint filling could be normally expected in installation/fabrication of framed doors and would be resolved/fixed by the finisher/painter. I don’t think you will get much mileage from Doors Plus on these.
Now the others,
- The finishing trim (your third row and left photo) indicates that the trim width was uneven and one section (the piece on the top left of the gap) narrows towards the end. I think they have used the end bit of the trim section which often narrows because of movement when machining. This is not terribly good and possibly should not have been used in the corner where it would have been noticeable (either leaving a gap in your case of the other side of the trim not meeting the adjoining piece).
This is ‘sloppy’ workmanship and not acceptable as it could have easily been aoided. The gaps resulting from the uneven trim could be filled but would noticeable if stained/varnished rather than painted. I would be suggesting to Doors Plus that they organise for the installer to return to remove this section of trim and replace it with a section of same width as the adjoining piece…or if the door is to be painted, provide you with the necessary materials to satisfactorily fill this gap. I would be opting for the replacement of the trim as the filled gap may crack or become more noticeable over time.
- The ruler photo…a bit hard to work out but think I get it. It appears that the door frame width was slightly less than the wall width leaving a small gap between the finishing trim and the jam (enough to slot a ruler in). Now, this can be an issue when buying an off the shelf door as the doors are manufactured to a standard width…maybe not exactly perfect for your wall width. What possibly should have happened is the trim should have been placed hard against the door from removing the gap…the only issue with doing this is the trim won’t meet the other corner trim at right angles…there will be a mismatch. Such mismatches are usually less noticeable after finishing. Alternatively, the installer could have used a wider piece of trim and cut it/plane it down to size do that it was flush with the other corner trim and also the door frame…removing any potential gap.
While this may be acceptable to some, obviously it isn’t you. What I suggest is either of the following
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approach Doors Plus and ask if the installer can return (at the same time as replacing the trim mentioned above) and ask for the existing trim to be removed and shifted such that it abuts the door jam. See if they can use a new bit of trim rather than moving the existing one as there will be less nail holes to fill and also damage caused by the shift. This will leave a mismatch at the corner which you may have to accept.
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Ask Doors Plus to install another moulding around both sides of the door such that it finishes off the door better. The trim could be shaped something like this:
or
or other shapes which fit neatly, to hide the gap and also ensure no new gaps are created against the trim or frame.
- The last photo is possibly a result of the hinging mechanism and not much would be able to be done with exception of removing the existing doors and possibly installing ones which are slightly longer…however…it is likely that longer doors with the hinging/folding mechanism could hit the door jam when opening closing causing damage to the doors/jam or making doors difficult to open/close. I am not sure if much can be done about this without looking at the doors and mechanism and how it works.
Hope the above makes sense and apologies for the long post.
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It’s interesting to read your knowledgable take on the frame and thanks for all the trouble you’ve gone to. However, there’s no way I’m letting anyone employed by Doors Plus near my frame again. If they think this one is acceptable, I’d have no confidence they could fix it.
The gaps are all filled now with wood filler and we’re in the process of painting it the same colour as the doors. It’s not what I wanted but it seems to be the best way to deal with the situation. My main concern has been to warn people about the risk involved in dealing with Doors Plus in Fyshwick.
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I had a very bad experience with Doors Plus at Tempe, NSW.
I wanted a steel mesh stainless steel security door. I paid the deposit and when the “tradesman” came to fit the door all hell broke loose. Firstly I wanted the door to be positioned in such a way that the door would swing all the way back onto the rear of the building (ie 180 degree swing). I was told that that couldn’t be done. During the conversation it became obvious that the security door was going to be fitted into a wooden frame. I pointed out that this type of door must be fitted into a steel frame to comply with the Australian Standard. At this point the so-called “tradesman” became abusive and when I categorically refused to have anything but a proper installation he left. I contacted Doors Plus and was refunded the deposit. I found another supplier (who was cheaper) and the door was fitted very professionally exactly as I asked.
The problem is that Doors Plus is really just a showroom and the installers are just contractors who are probably not paid very much. This business model is guaranteed to cause problems. This certainly seems to be the case with the very poor workmanship experienced by cristyk.
The golden rule is don’t pay if you are not 100% satisfied.
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Sorry to hear you had an unpleasant experience with Doors Plus too and I’m thankful they refunded your deposit. I should have spent more time closely examining my frame before I paid the final instalment on it, but I made the mistake of focussing on the doors and how well they fitted and operated, and succumbed to the pressure to pay on the spot. It actually took some hours for me to discover the extent of the shoddiness of the frame as it never occurred to me it would be so bad. The ‘carpenter’ seemed a lovely man but it didn’t translate to his work, so that’s a mistake I made. Plus my eyesight is pretty bad at the moment as I’m having vision issues, and I suffer from PTSD which makes having a stranger in the house making loud noises something I want to get over as soon as possible. I hope I’ve learned from this to take a lot longer to decide if I’m satisfied before I pay.
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I also had an experience with Doors Plus Arundall Gold Coast, bi-fold doors supplied and fitted with new frame. did not paint or stain for 2 years {still in original condition today} noticed that the doors were coming apart , separating from the internal frame.photos given to store and they would investigate. They advised that the problem was not covered by any warranty as I had not painted the doors. The lack of adhesive to hold the doors together did not seem to matter . Don’t know what paint has to do as adhesive does not delaminate . Anyhow a chippy mate came over and repaired the doors , stronger than original. Still have not painted the doors but no problems as have been correctly repaired.
rds Gazza
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I can see why Door Plus wouldn’t take responsibility for your doors coming apart as they put all over their warranty and promotions that raw wood should be sealed ASAP in order to avoid moisture absorption, so they would claim any problems with your doors would be due to the fact you hadn’t sealed them. I couldn’t say whether moisture absorption would be the problem in your case, but getting someone competent (like your mate) to do the repairs was clearly the best course of action with Doors Plus.
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I went to Doors Plus Punchbowl for some advice re our internal sliding doors c.1950. They were not able to be opened or closed smoothly.
At Doors Plus, I showed their ‘expert’ some photos of the roller mechanism.
He told me that the mechanisms could not be cleaned or serviced, no similar mechanisms were available, that the lifespan of the originals was only 15 years, and so I had best buy the new, different ones he recommended. He also had a crack at selling me new doors !!
Needless to say, when I checked at Bunnings, I discovered that spare parts were still available for the original mechanisms, but that the mechanisms didn’t need servicing anyway - they and the tracks could be easily cleaned, DIY.
Doors now working like a charm, probably just as they did back in 1952.
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Maybe Doors Plus regardless of their address/placement in Australia need a Choice Shonky entry and some investigation. This group seem on the anecdotal evidence to be “Shonky”.
You should also buy extra spares for the time when they aren’t in the market anymore.
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Maybe there should be a royal commission, as it appears they are putting sales/profits ahead of customer’s interests…possibly they have learnt something from the banks.
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I’ll happily nominate them for a Shonky!
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The first shot shows a composite timber, this is made by gluing smaller bits together. It saves money as off-cuts and smaller logs can be used instead of larger planks that have no joins but are more expensive. The end joins in particular (the saw-tooth bits) are very obvious as the image shows so this approach is often restricted to furniture and fittings that are painted. If the sample that you were shown was solid timber then the vendor has failed the test that the goods they supply must match the showroom example provided.
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Yes, the composite timber was the main reason I had to paint my frame instead of staining it. And yes, it looks nothing like the one I was ‘sold’ in the showroom: my frame is much wider and not suitable for staining. But if the manager of the store happily denies all this, it suggests the only way I could get justice is with legal action, and frankly, I have better ways to spend my time and money. Sadly, it demonstrates that consumer laws are only helpful if suppliers agree to abide by them.
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No it doesn’t imply that they are only useful if a supplier agrees to them. That is like saying that theft laws are only useful if thieves agree with them. The law gives rights and protections to both the providers and the consumer. If either fails to adhere to the law they will lose protection of the law. The problem is the prosecution of the failure to adhere to the law and the proof required for that prosecution are sometimes difficult to obtain.
Everyone who has a faulty product can take some action eg lodge a complaint with the provider, complain to Fair Trading bodies, lodge a complaint to the ACCC, take action in a Administrative Tribunal, take action in a Court. All these avenues are enabled by the Consumer Law without which you would have little actionable rights. If a complaint to a provider fails to get action ie they choose to ignore the law then other steps will be required to achieve a proper response/outcome. This requires the consumer to take further action and some don’t, that is their choice but is not a failure of the law.
The thief analogy here would be that the thief chooses to ignore the theft laws and steals, has the law failed? No, it has failed to deter the thief but then it has a penalty attached that the police must then use to punish the thief, they must gather evidence and then apply that evidence in a Court to obtain the required outcome.
Not everyone is ethical, honest, of good character and so we have laws to ensure when it goes wrong there is a path to justice.
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but as a practical matter when it gets hard and the silks need to be brought in at personal expense, [quote=“christyk, post:35, topic:15247”]
it demonstrates that consumer laws are only helpful if suppliers agree to abide by them
[/quote]
leading to the reality that our laws are often toothless or the agencies tasked to assure they are enforced are underfunded or under-scoped.
The outcome is the same from my perspective, and I have probably posted the same words myself, that the laws only work as designed when the supplier is willing.
Not a good analogy because the police and courts are a different kettle of fish than the ACCC and fair trading…
Would that not in those cases make the law hollow? Or ineffectual as a practical matter?
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All laws could be seen in a similar way as being ineffectual, drivers continue to speed, people steal, people murder, people lie and defraud. So in that context all laws are failures, as not all people abide by them. If looking at cost (money and time) sure there can be a need to spend it to achieve an outcome and the weigh up may incline someone to avoid the extra cost.
ACCC and Fair Trading are only part of the process and a consumer can take their complaint to a Civil Court for the application of the law, without which they would not have a right so not so different from Police and Courts (noting that Police and the Criminal Justice system fail at times). Failure to adequately support the various arms of the process is not a failure of the law but a failure of Governments to fund and of consumers to take action. The Law is probably strong, the application far less so.
The Law is there to firstly guide, then if guidance fails there is the penalty. The failure of a consumer to take action is not the failure of the law but a failure to use the law (for whatever reason eg cost) but I note here that the financial cost of an Administrative Tribunal is not onerous but may involve time that a person could consider better spent elsewhere in their particular case. Would I take further action over a $12 kettle if the supplier failed to adhere to the Consumer laws, in all likelihood no but for $1,000 lounge suite the chances are very good (have done so in the past). The same as Police choosing to investigate the theft of a $5 note versus a theft of $1,000, chances are far better that the $1,000 will get more time and effort.
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I had good results with the ACL from an oven manufacturer ($4,000), and was flipped off by an importer selling dodgy dryer balls ($50). As you alluded to, the latter knew my choices and the costs I would incur and whether the ACCC or Fair Trading might get involved, and his chances of being served, and acted in his self interest to keep my $50 and let me keep his dryer balls parts that fell apart within a few cycles because heat weakened the joints!.
The idealistic world is a wonderful thing in that it gives us all hope. But the realities of life sometimes get in the way. The former company willingly complied and the latter essentially told me to get stuffed.
Such is the real efficacy that the ACL can work a treat when the company is willing, but does not if the company is disinterested. Sure we can pony up to hire a silk, and re your values is a good point, potentially go to our xCAT often at more cost than the value of the problem, just to make a point.
I think we will agree to disagree on the efficacy of the ACL when the company is not interested. edit-> excepting in the most egregious circumstances when the ACCC will rise up and act.
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I would like complaints to ACCC to be actioned more quickly at times, not knowing the level at which their interest is piqued enough to get them involved is frustrating.
But everytime I have a problem of supplier adherence to the ACL I do spend a little amount of time lodging a complaint with the ACCC, one in the hope that it might give them reason to send a reminder to the supplier of their obligations and two that it might cause the ACCC to get to that tipping point of much stricter action.
I think we do see where the ACL has worked even in the face of disinterest by the supplier eg Valve, but I do agree that it doesn’t seem to happen enough times to satisfy us all that it is effective enough or even that some penalties are enough to reflect the damage.
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Wish i could give 0 stars. My sister got “custom” bi-fold doors installed. The door frame was not level and the so called “specialist carpenter” decided he would use off cuts to hide the fact they didnt measure the door properly. When my sister complained about how bad the finish was she was told thats how its meant to look. Then she started getting harassed by the “specialist carpenter” who was very offended, as he was very happy with the job he did. Not once did anyone offer to come have a look at what the issue was and not one has anyone offer to fixed the shocking job. Do not use this company, Brendon the sales person or George the “specialists carpenter” unless you dont mind your doors looking like they have been installed by a toddler and to be bullied by an unprofessional company…
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