… to be fair, the testing should include a basic psych test, aroma test and general hygiene assessment … police check might be good too, I don’t want to sit next to a criminal who might steal my in-flight magazine … 
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Wonder if the airline or fellow passenger are responsible/equally responsible?
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An article regarding trying to avoid being seated near kids on flights.
In 1994, we flew from San Francisco to New York on a Towers Air charter flight on a noisy old Boeing 707, the first time we had ever flown on one of these antiques.
Far worse was the young baby sitting diagonally across from us who cried and screamed for almost the entire 7 hour flight.
We tried to arrange the same every time we flew with our three young ones. The airlines however always ensured we sat together. That’s Life!
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Do cabin attendants owe passengers a duty of care or can they leave passengers to fend for themselves when in difficulties?
Case in point: on a recent overseas flight, just before takeoff, I started a conversation with the passenger seated to my right. He was a young Englishman who was a keen fan of (European) football and was setting up his mobile device’s settings, when all of a sudden the two pax in the row in front, in unison reclined their seats to the maximum. The result was that the Englishman’s face almost made contact with his mobile device.
There was little legroom to begin with and with the two ahead of us reclining, we had nearly no leg room whatsoever.
The Englishman tapped the pax ahead of him, pointing out the tight squeeze she inflicted on him by reclining, and she quickly retracted her seat back to the upright position. Note, he was a slight fellow and not tall, but still was uncomfortable. I on the other hand at 6’ and of average build was even more uncomfortable.
I then asked her companion (who looked like a proverbial reality TV star) to likewise exhibit courtesy and retract his seat. “No, I will not” was his lightening quick reply.
I could not move. When I wanted to rest a glass of coke on the tray table, he still did not retract.
I did not want my shirt to wear the coke, so I held it in my hand while trying to read a book.
I sought help from cabin staff but they (all three with who I spoke) wanted nothing to do with the pax.
It was suggested that I move to another cabin, where I was told “there are several empty seats”.
So I moved.
Yes, there were empty seats, but all but one were “used” that is, they were occupied by pax lying across 3 seats or 4 seats. Nobody has the slightest regard for the facts: every one of them paid for one seat or perhaps also for a spare seat. Nobody paid for a row. Not for a row of 3 or a row of 4.
When I tried to sit in the one “unused” seat available and I mean the ONE unused seat, the gentleman seated in that row of three made his position clear: " I hope you don’t make yourself comfortable as I paid for the row and you’re occupying a third of my row. I expect you’ll move very soon".
I had to argue my case, “negotiate”, with him for 30 mins before he stopped repeating his claim. Mind you, he never acknowledged my right to be in that cabin. I think this is what soldiers call a “ceasefire”.
My question is: does the airline have a duty of care? Did the airline fail in its duty to me?
I am not sure if this is a consumer matter (i.e. for NSW FT) or if this is a matter for a court.
I felt that I did not get the product I deserve: safe, comfortable seat that I don’t have to negotiate to be able to sit in. Of course I could have stayed in the original seat by inconveniencing the pax behind me.
This is not who I am, no, that was not an option.
My real worry is this: my mum is nudging 90. If she was seated behind the obnoxious pax ahead of me and wanted to move, there is no way she would have the stamina (or as she’s a senior citizen, the courage) to negotiate with a middle aged stranger and would have to suffer a 15 hrs flight with the legroom suited to an adolescent.
Any thoughts?
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Hi @Jon01
I have moved your post to an existing topic which was asking the same question essentially.
You may find the preceding posts about other passengers bad experiences indicates fairly clearly that their passengers’ comfort is not always airlines’ top priority.
In a slightly dissimilar situation my outcome was a bit different.
Rather than telling me to fend for myself the cabin crew took initiative to try to help and succeeded. The 3 you spoke to probably did not expect you to have a difficulty since there were unused seats. Did you ask any of them to ‘put you in one’ and if so how did they react?
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Two things come to mind:
- Regarding your experience, the following may be of use. I flew back a few weeks ago SIN-SYD with Scoot Airlines. I booked a couple of weeks before departure and the low cost airline was anything but. I paid AUD 1400 one way! Admittedly it was in Scoot Plus, which has seats of similar size to other airlines’ premium economy but has no entertainment system and as many awful meals as you want to pay for in addition to the seat price. The airline makes clear in its Conditions of Carriage that
3.6 – EXTRA SEAT AND GUESTS OF SIZE
1. a) For Guests requiring or wanting an extra seat, advance notice must be provided at least three (3) days before departure through a Scoot Call Centre. Scoot will charge the prevailing fare for two guests. In order to ensure adjacent seats are available, advance seat assignment will also be required and charged at the rate listed in the Fees Chart. The booking is subject to seat availability and must be made via a Scoot Call Centre. Guests requiring or wanting an extra seat as part of an interline journey may not purchase an additional seat by any other method.
1. b) Guests of Size may be required to purchase the adjacent seat or an upgrade to ScootPlus at the prevailing fare and seat selection fee (where applicable) for two guests. In the event that no adjacent seat or ScootPlus upgrade is available, you will need to rebook two seats on the next available flight which has two adjacent seats or a ScootPlus upgrade. Should you choose not to make that purchase, Scoot may not be able to transport you – in such case, your fare and all associated fees and charges may be forfeited without refund and Scoot shall not owe any further liability to you.
This is one airline policy that has my support!
- I went to the rear galley to find the cabin staff and asked for help to find me a seat. One attendant said “I saw 20E is free, why don’t you sit there”? I walked back to the front of the plane, well “front” on economy, and saw that 20E was full of personal items of the woman in 20D.
When I wanted to point this out to the one attendant who suggested 20E, I was told “I think she is on a break and has gone to her bunk”. Asking others to speak to Ms 20D was like talking to the hand.
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Much obliged.
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It reflects more than ‘rights’ when cabin crew make no effort and being anything other than polite, respectful, and obedient to them in return can result in being escorted off the plane or worse. Was your experience on QF or another airline? There are many posts across the net that QF crews can be brilliant or awful, not a good look for ‘consistent product quality’.
How do you know this is the case - did you see the passenger manifest? It is possible they did pay for more than one seat. Many years ago we travelled on a Turkish Airlines flight (overnight Singapore to Istanbul) there there was a group which were in first/business class and the overflow of the group had economy middle row seats, one to a passenger. There were about 5-6 middle rows taken. They had paid for them so they could fly more comfortably and lie to sleep.
The reason I know is I asked flight crew if I could move to a nearby row which was vacant. I was told ‘no’ and they explained why the other passengers could enjoy the privilege. I was hoping to follow suit to make my own flight more enjoyable.
I have also been on a flight with medivac patient who also occupied all the middle row seats, albeit lying down for the whole flight on a stretcher.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there are other reasons why airlines book out middle row seats for one passenger.
One shouldn’t assume everyone else only bought one seat ticket because they have, as it is possible it isn’t the case.
This is a common gripe of passengers. Why should the passenger in front recline their seats, which are designed to he recline (unless it is for take off of landing or maybe severe turbulence), when the passenger behind doesn’t want them to. I have had many uncomfortable flights where this has occurred and there is little one can do, other than asking the passenger in front nicely if they can put their seat up a bit. Some do. Some don’t.
It isn’t cabin crew fault the plane is designed to allow passengers to recline their seats to make their flight a bit more comfortable. What right does another passenger have to refuse another passenger making their flight more comfortable - I would say they don’t unless the passenger did something outside the design capabilities of the plane…such as putting their legs/feet over seat in front.
Cabin crew won’t take action against passengers reclining their seats because another passenger doesn’t like it. Why should cabin crew impose potentially discomfort on another passenger to improve the comfort of another. I say discomfort as the passenger in front could have an ailment which makes sitting upright for extended periods uncomfortable.
A reasonable person also will know that passengers including themselves can recline their seats if they chose to do so (with exception of landing or take off) and are designed to do.
If you dislike the ability of fellow passengers to use the aircraft for what it is designed for…or potentially purchase additional seats to make their own flight more comfortable, you have a right to chose other seat classes or purchase additional seats where airlines allow, to make your own flight more comfortable.
No.
You won’t get anywhere if you persue it further for some of the reasons outlined above.
Success may only potentially come if you can prove there was a fault in the plane, such as the seats in front reclined more than they should because they were broken. It can be assumed it isn’t the case because most airlines don’t allow use such seats due to safety or injury risks. You will need to prove that they did.
My experience was with Etihad, departing Kingsford Smith.
This was a couple of months after Etihad broke my suitcase and indicated in the absence of the original receipt of the broken suitcase, I may as well talk to the hand.
Why did I fly with them again?
Because their schedule was most convenient when compared to QF and EK.
So you’re concluding that pax have a right to recline at will, in this case even at take off with attendants not bringing this to the pax’s attention and that my only recourse is to recline as well just to gain those few cm of separation and in the process shoving a Koran into the face of the gentleman behind me?
If that is indeed your conclusion (and I am no expert, so will defer to you), then fine, that is what I’ll do in my next flight and if it happens to be on an airline where attendants in fact do speak up and speak up to me, I’ll point to the wise guy in front of me who started this domino effect.
On the matter of extra seat, Etihad - I was informed - offers pax the right to buy an extra seat at a discounted price but no more at discounted prices. I doubt anyone would buy another seat at the economy price, so as to have three seats when he/she could fly Business Class for such an outlay.
I get the impression you believe that since you paid for a ticket/seat, your rights override or proclude the rights others might have. What gives you such a right?
If a passenger decides to recline a seat back on takeoff or landing, it is for cabin crew to address should they see fit. They might choose not to or to do so. It isn’t up to other passengers to ‘dob in’ the passenger and then use this in the future to make some sort of claim against the airline because they didn’t take action for some reason. This is a unreasonable expectation and if it wasn’t, most passengers would take action against airlines because a fellow traveller turned on the light to read when cabin lights were dimmed for sleeping and preventing one to sleep…or the air vent on a fellow was on making it uncomfortably cool…or a fellow passenger hit the call button waking one up and the list goes on.
Travelling by air has its unique challenges if one wants the most comfortable flight as possible…as the flight is shared by others who also have similar expectations. Thinking the way to get comfortable is the same for all, is an unreasonable expectation.
In relation to buying extra seats, as indicated above I have seen it done twice for two different reasons. You assume that extra seats were not purchased by others and made an issue based in this assumption - which could be incorrect as you looked at the situation through your own eyes. Yes, buying multiple seats may not be cost effective, but cost is only one consideration. As indicated above, comfort is another. If money was no object, buying a row of middle seats to create a bed to sleep on during a long haul flight, is an option I would consider.
The regulations in the country of take off apply. Placing your seat in the upright position for take-off and landing is a requirement in every major country around the world. In most cases, it is required by law.
A flight crew that ignores it should be reported to the relevant national feds. Exception would be documented medical situations.
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I have seen oversized passenger where the seat can’t be put in its upright position. I have also been on a full flight where a seat (my seat) had a broken recliner mechanism causing the seat to recline when one sat against the seat. In both cases cabin crew allowed the seat to be in the partial recline position for takeoff/landing. It appears there is discretion to the rule.
It is also possible they weren’t aware of the chair being reclined after cabin was secured and takeoff commences. Most modern aircraft configuration it is impossible for flight crew to see every seat from their crew seats. Once a plane commences takeoff, the crew aren’t supposed to leave their seats unless it is safe to do so. I have been in flights where passenger assistance buttons have been pushed when the flight is in early stages of takeoff (waiting to proceed onto the runway) and cabin crew advising all passengers that they can’t attend to the passenger until after takeoff and when flight crew advise it is safe to do so.
Having expectations cabin crew are available at any time for a passenger, such as addressing a passenger who chooses to recline their seat after takeoff procedure has commenced is an unreasonable expectation. Passengers also need to take responsibility for their actions and behaviour towards other passengers and cabin crew during a flight (gate to gate).
Even though a fellow passenger disregarded cabin crew general instructions, it doesn’t give another passenger a right to claim for something. If for example on the runaway the plane hit a bump causing the passenger to hit their head on the seat, only because it was reclined, and an injury occurred which has associated medical reports, it will be the passenger who reclined the chair against the general direction of the cabin crew who would be responsible. There isn’t any indication a injury occurred, only some potential to cause an inconvenience. A potential inconvenience isn’t grounds for making a claim otherwise the courts will be full of commuters taking action against fellow commuters for traffic they caused, making a potential inconvenience.
You got me wrong.
I do not assume my rights override those of others.
I just think that if everyone compromised then everyone would have the most comfortable flight experience.
From my position of having very limited legroom after Mr In Front of Me’s reclined, in order to have a semblance of comfort I would have to recline my seat which would consequently affect the guy behind me. Affect him negatively.
As to your point on extra seats. I am very confident that if someone really bought a seat next to him ata discount and the seat I used at full fare (or close to it) he would have complained to attendants and rightly I would have been booted out of that seat.
You are correct that I did not see the manifest, but I was assured by attendants that the seat I found myslef in as well as 20E where I was also directed were not purchased but were available for folks to move into from economy if they wanted to pay the surcharge for the extra legroom.
You do think your right override the passenger in front. It is the right of the passenger in front to push the recliner button in their seat to recline their backrest. If you think that the airline needs to give you something because a passenger exercised their right (and as the plane is designed to do) which caused you some inconvenience (less personal space when sitting), it is unreasonable proposition. Almost all long haul flights have recliner seats.
(I say most as I have travelled on a budget airline (AirAsiaX) where the seat base slides forward at the same time the bottom of the backrest also moves forward while the external of the backrest stays in the same position. This means the backrest doesn’t change for the passenger behind but one’s own legroom is severely compromised).
You would have known that the flight you booked had a extremely high chance of having recliner seats and you accepted the seat ticket based on this. On boarding the flight you then think the passenger in the row in front of you shouldn’t recline their seat, which they are entitled to do, and because they did it is the airline’s problem and they should give you something as a result. Won’t ever happen unless you can demonstrate the seat n front had a fault which compromised your personal space more than would he the case if the seat was fully reclined.
I suggest that since such an experience is unacceptable to you, that in the future you consider first or business class or you pay extra for a seat fronting a bulkhead/internal partition so that you don’t have a passenger that may chose to recline their seat in front of you. An easy solution for you to consider in the future so you don’t impinge on the rights of others to recline their seats if they chose to do so.
So you are now saying that the seat you tried to move to cost more than a standard economy class seat - and you thought you could move to it without paying the surcharge. Why didn’t you say that earlier as the cabin crew would have been within their rights to refuse you to move to the higher cost seat. It is like someone in economy seeing there is a seat in first class think they can do a free upgrade themselves because it is vacant.
- Of course I know seats recline, I just had no idea on this aircraft, an ageing B777-300ER the legroom resulting from such a recline is very very small. Comments on Etihad Airways | ProductReview.com.au attest to this, in particular
Mahsa Sydney, NSW3mo ago
Terrible experience
Terrible flight experience in my life
From sydney to Abu dubi
The plane was so old and not good enough for long flight
seats were too close to each other not enough space for legs
Back of my seat was broken so I had to sit up all the time of flight.
The staff awere not friendly at all
They woke me up 2 times very loud and sudden
Meals were absolutely rubbish
It didn’t meet our expectations for a good I d quality airand not recommended at all
How coincidental! That was the same route I took ie SYD-AUH. Of course I can’t say if it was the very same flight, but her comments of “so old” and “meals” (which looked liket food court chinese style beef in black bean sauce) are heartening. I am not alone in believing my experience was sub par. I did not imagine my experience.
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I too have flown Air Asia and the legroom in that case when the seat in front is reclined was greater than in the Etihad flight.
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I did not choose to move to where folk have more legroom (for which they pay say $75 more per seat). I had no idea that such seats were available on my flight. I was told I could move, gratis, if I wanted to, but I preferred to stay in my seat where the entertainment system was working well, the fellow in the adjoining seat was interesting and I did not want to carry my hand luggage to another overhead locker.
The implication that I sought a free upgrade is false because that is not who I am. -
Assuming your points other than (3) are correct, then I will in future have no option (if I don’t want to be caged in, assuming I’m again on such an aircraft) but to impose similarly on the pax behind me.
