Would you buy an electric vehicle - Why or why not?

An FBT exemption for some electric cars is already in place.

The below statement in The Guardian article is misleading as the FBT exemption only applies to cases where the private use of the vehicle is strictly limited.

“Additionally, heavy vehicles such as utes, vans and 4WDs, which can carry more than one tonne, are exempt from fringe benefits tax.”

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There is really only one winner.

The Rivian R1S because it’s a BEV. Preorders not expected until 2024 for it and the R1T ute version.

Not quite on topic.
The biggest winner at the petrol pump in the USA or not - 2023 Cadillac Escalade-V: 682 HP, 3-Ton Sporty SUV. “Sporty”, assumes that alludes in marketing terms to the public relationship between pro golfers and their Cadillacs.

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‘How it is’ reinforces how poorly considered overall policy can be as compared to a nationally coherent one with all facets in lockstep to support a consistent outcome.

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Perhaps some good news for Lithium battery development and hopefully better storage capacity (equaling more distance traveled before recharging). Lithium batteries had a problem, dendrites (lithium crystals) would form around the elctrolyte and could/would lead to battery degradation and short circuits within the batteries.

Research at Standford University in the USA has found what they believe what causes these problems. It is very small cracks that form in the electrode material.

Mystery of impediment to a next-gen battery solved | Stanford News

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I think I’ll wait until the next generation of solar cars come out, they will probably be much cheaper and easier to work with.

Yeah, me too. solar cars are not very practical at the moment. Most of them look like this.
images (1)

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Hopefully worth the wait.

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It pays to keep up. Each state and territory sees things a little differently. QLD was lagging on EV support.

Supply of BEV’s, which is not meeting demand remains the greater challenge for intending purchasers. Also a factor in the pricing as there is no pressure to price competitively.

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Nissan Leaf does it now but the Unit needed to do this is about the same as a 5Kwh Small House Battery but getting cheaper. It maybe in Europe but I think it’s 2025 when CCS Models (the majority) will have to start doing this.

Victoria has taken a step back and eliminating an incentive program a year early. $3,000 does not seem like a lot to tilt a decision one way (BEV) or the other (ICE) but might be a tipping point to reinforce whether the government of the day is serious about ‘going electric’ or not.

EV range claims are starting to hit the fan as reality clicks in. The real ranges might be enough but the claims are often what sell. The US DOJ is taking notice but there are also comments about our ‘locals’.

https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/life/tech/2023/10/25/tesla-range

Chris Jones, president of the Australian Electric Vehicle Association, said it is important that Tesla is clear with customers about the circumstances in which electric vehicle owners can achieve the advertised range.

“The bigger the range, the bigger the selling point: This thing will drive 500 kilometres on a charge under ideal circumstances, which is minimal air-conditioning, no headwind, no uphill, no downhill, just flat ground on a 25-degree ambient day,” he said.

“Anything different from that you’re going to have less range.”

Reuters reported that Tesla has had so many complaints about the range of its vehicles from customers that it quietly created a ‘diversion team’ to cancel range-related appointments and “thwart any customer complaining about poor driving range from bringing their vehicles into service”.

As usual caveat emptor.

A manufacturer with EV car battery-swap stations.

In many countries the resale value/selling price of used EV has tanked, with EV depreciation about twice that of ICE vehicles:

One of the main issues identified with the purchase of used EVs is the battery condition. With ICE vehicles, mileage as well as obtaining a vehicle inspection can give an indication of the future life of the vehicle - thus can easily be reflected in resale values.

With EVs, it is not as straight forward as battery condition is one of the major influences of resale values. The problem is that currently it is not possible to accurately determine battery condition nor if charging behaviours (fast charge, regular charges to top up to 100% etc) or vehicle use (high discharge or temperatures etc) has impacted in the quality of the battery, irrespective of mileage undertaken.

Onboard range computers also don’t provide any information on if range is impacted as these are usually set by the manufacturer with optimum ranges of the battery when new.

There are a number of start-ups trying to develop tools/instruments to best battery condition/health in used EVs - current there are a number which provide estimates, but

the development of battery health tests is in its infancy and may need to go a long way before it is reliable/accurate. Reliable battery health information will be important for resale values. If assessments aren’t reliable, used EV prices will continue to be impacted as buying a used EV, one won’t know if they have bought a great car or a dud where an expensive battery replacement might be needed sooner rather than later…

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EV’s have a strong lead but hydrogen is not ‘out’ yet as Hyundai joins the technology push.

History demonstrates the best technology does not always win so whether hydrogen will get its place in or eventually rule the market will be some years to know. If hydrogen demonstrates market power the plethora of used EV’s could become expensive bookends?

Their batteries could at least be re-purposed as large-capacity storage batteries for solar and wind generators.

Hydrogen is a battery though i.e. when excess solar and wind generation is available, use it to electrolyse water, capture the hydrogen that is produced … and when there is a deficit of solar and wind generation, use the hydrogen to produce electricity.

It’s not something that I would want in my house though.

Is hydrogen going to win out for grid-scale storage? Who knows. Competing against it are pumped hydro, lithium batteries, molten salt, and other options that I don’t even know about.

Also, a hydrogen-powered car is likely to be an EV. So the question is only where the electricity comes from - a Lithium battery charged from an external source v. generated in a fuel cell from hydrogen (or some other net CO2-emission-free energy source). A hydrogen-powered car may even still have a small battery in order to be able to use regenerative braking.

In Australia, given the existing challenges of charging infrastructure and the associated range anxiety, I am sceptical that hydrogen is going to kill battery EVs any time soon.

Households may also appreciate the autonomy that battery EVs provide - where that is possible for that household. The difficulty with that is the increasing percentage of Australians who are “choosing” to live as battery hens. :wink:

Hydrogen cars need a small capacity battery to allow a user to drive the vehicle until such time that the hydrogen fuel cell has reached full operating output. Information suggests that this can take a few minutes.

I agree that these batteries are likely to be recharged using regenerative braking to save hydrogen consumption, but top up from the fuel ells may also be needed as well (e.g. short trips where there is insufficient regenerative energy from braking).

The advantage of hydrogen is it can be produced anytime there is excess generation capacity (providing that there is a market and storage). When the grid moved close and closer towards 100% renewable, the excess generation capacity in the network will increase substantially. I have explained elsewhere why this is the case.

Hydro, lithium batteries, molten salt etc are expensive options and there becomes a point there the marginal cost to increase storage capacity becomes prohibitive. This is one of the reasons why there will be significant excess renewable generation attached to the network. The other main reason is that to balance out the fluctuating nature of renewable generation, significant additional generation capacity is needed to try and balance out potentially rapid changes in generation from point sources on the network (noting that some short term fluctuations will also be managed in part by storages).

This excess generation capacity, which is required in addition to that captured in storages, comes at a significant capital investment cost. One way to increase return in investment is to use excess generation capacity by ‘making’ hydrogen. This is why some there is has been an interest to establish hydrogen hubs is parts of the country to allow exploitation of the excess generation capacity which otherwise would have no use and in effect become a wasted opportunity.

Autonomy is likely to disappear over time. There has been discussion within the electricity industry on how to use and exploit vehicle/home battery systems to support network storage. It is highly likely that in the future if one wants to charge from the grid (or connect a home battery to the grid), one will have to agree to these batteries will be accessible by the network operator to manage supply on the network in times where loads exceed supply.

There has been precedence for such control, with air-conditioning - where the network operators can manage air-conditioner loads remotely during times of high demand to take pressure on the network. Likewise more recently with solar with network operators being able to intervene in the operation of small scale solar generators to protect the operation of the grid.

The network operator having access to batteries does pose a potential nightmare in relation to battery longevity and depreciated costs. I was exposed to discussions with a request by a network operator to have access to backup power generation (genset) at a waste water treatment plant, for use to support network demand. The costs or providing access far outweighed any benefits and the request was declined.

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Yes, of course; I was just pointing out that the batteries from obsolete EVs are still useable as they are. When/if all new cars are hydrogen-powered, old EV batteries might even be very very cheap.

A lot of stuff that’s currently being dumped in landfill could be repurposed instead.

For example, I know people (with lots of space) who are making use of obsolete low-output solar panels that’d otherwise go to landfill. You can get them free, and if you put a large enough number together, you can be off-grid instead of having to cough up $thousands to have mains electricity connected. :grinning:

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Depends what is meant by autonomy. As a prediction about the future, you could be right and I can’t prove otherwise but I intended only to make the general observation that the more a household is self-sufficient in electricity, the less dependent it is on market prices for both electricity and car fuel - and some households will like that.

I guess in theory the grid could (with legislative backing) completely take control of how you use electricity e.g. prevent you charging your EV at time t if “the public interest” is better served at that moment in time by forcing you instead to sell the electricity to the grid at a price determined by the grid. In the extreme though that would cause utter chaos in households (never mind in businesses).

Such a change is unlikely to be retrospective though - in the sense that all new PV installations may be required to contain such a trojan horse but the legislation might not require that capability to be retrofitted - and that has so far been borne out in practice.

Solar penetration is already so high that without making it retrospective it limits the ability of the grid to control how households use electricity.

Another challenge is a household that counters this by throwing a big (physical) switch to pull itself off the grid at time t. So the government would have to legislate to make the installation of such a switch illegal. (My PV install has such a switch in software - and it does work.)

Obviously the kind of measure you are talking about raises a whole new set of network security issues (i.e. an additional “potential nightmare”), but that maybe belongs in a different topic.

The latest trend.

We live well outside the outer urban sprawl. A casual observation. Even on a short 10 minute trip up the road, it’s now common to see at least one and often 2 or 3 BEV’s in the traffic. Smaller Hybrids are also becoming more common but less obvious unless pulled up at the lights where the badging is more evident.

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