The elephant in the room regarding EV’s is where will all the energy required to run them come from. I a technically illiterate country where very few even understand the difference between energy and power it seems all too easy to pull the wool over peoples eyes and the reality of the problem that increased numbers of EV’s on the road is overlooked.
To put this in perspective, the average daily household ELECTRICITY consumption in Australia is in the vicinity of 20 kWh .or 7280 kWh per year. This of course varies by season and location. Obviously some households use gas for cooking and heating (in rural areas wood is also used for heating), so when large scale users of gas (industry and electricity generators) are taken out of the equation, it would be unprofitable to “mine” and distribute gas, electricity will have to be the replacement and thus household electricity useage will increase.
To put this into perspective, the latest 2 wheel drive Model 3 Tesla uses about 13 kWh of electrical energy per 100 kilometers (0.13 kWh/kM). with and average of 1.8 cars per household travelling about 20,000 kM per year, this equates to 4680 kWh per year for each household.
This is equivalent to about 65% of the household energy use before adding in the extra electricity that cessation of gas use will cause, and overlooks the extra electrical use that commercial transportation will require.
So, conservatively, we will have to at least double the amount of electricity that will be required.
And remember, “batteries”, whether electrochemical or pumped hydro do not produce electricity, and do not return the same amount of electricity in that is “stored” into them. (pumped hydro only being about 80% efficient.
Currently, the electricity production in Australia already struggles to keep up with demand as witnessed by the increasing occurrence of blackouts and brown outs.
So, where will all of this electricity that will be required to convert to EV’s come from?
And, how will it be made available to remote locations without massive infrastructure costs?
Welcome @470rigby to the community.
The answer to your question of where will the energy come from is nuclear fusion and the enormous amount of energy that comes from that reaction.
Every morning the great source of energy comes into view. The sun of course.
We just need to harness the light and heat to produce electricity. Need more energy, then build more collectors. Need to distribute it, then build more wires. Need to convert to some specific fuel type, then the electricity is there to do the transform.
Need to store the energy, then use various methods. There are plenty in use today. Batteries, pumped hydro, thermal mass, even wind is caused by heat differentials caused by the sun.
Remote locations? The sun shines its energy everywhere. Build collectors where they are needed.
Since I most likely will be too old to drive in 20 years. I probably won’t be buying a EV. My assumption is that Australia has dropped the ball with EV’s and it will take 20 years to make an affordable EV for the everyday consumer. At the moment it is not viable to buy an EV unless you are wealthy. One example is if you have to replace a battery, it will cost at least $5000. Another point is that Australia is not EV friendly. Also high cost of insurance would be another factor.
Can’t see free charging lasting forever - as seems to be supplied in some places. Also have concerns about range of electric cars. Having said that had a Toyota Camry hybrid rental for a month and was impressed by its quality, and also how little petrol we used.
Still, if we are going to move out of one set of charging places - called petrol stations - and replace them with another, then interesting times ahead.
1885
The Benz Patent Motorwagen, 3 wheeler open air with bench seat and tiller.
23 years on
The Ford Model T, steering wheel, epicyclic gearbox, wind screen roof and doors.
Time jump to 1996,
GM EV1, 102kW, range 169km with 26.4kWh NiMH battery pack.
21 years on (2017)
The Tesla Model 3, 147kW, range 354km with 54kWh Lithium ion battery pack.
The first Benz along side other early automobiles were only affordable to the very wealthy. Their performance was limited. The GM EV1 was ony ever leased, but had an estimated selling price of US$34,000. (Approx US$62,000 in 2022 inflated).
Tesla USA today markets it’s cars as luxury vehicles with the base version (2022) of the model 3 US$44990 +/-US taxes, Govt subsidies etc (per Edmonds).
It’s understandable many of us average Australian consumers cannot afford the current crop of BEV’s.
I filled up today with unleaded 91 plus a 20l Jerry of diesel for the big mower. Over $164. Ouch!
The economics are constantly changing.
A newsy video item about Norway’s uptake of EVs and perhaps a wake up call for Australia in regards to going electric (please note the video has a small amount of ads).
How Norway KILLED the Petrol Car - Fully Charged Show
A great statement made at the end “The Government has made doing so the obvious choice [going electric]. They’ve put chargers absolutely everywhere. They’ve ensured that even if you live in a tower block you can still get a charge and above all else they have made buying a new electric car so much more financially viable than buying an equivalent petrol model”. It begs the question why not here?
I think that we need to accept that we need to change.
Why not in Australia?
Well the principal roadblock to that has just been removed from Government.
Other than policy, a country that is not even covered by mobile service with 100’s and more ks between signals is going to take a l.o.n.g time to install charging stations sufficient to assuage those worried about range (and convenience). Conceptually imagine a solar battery powered charger in the middle of the Simpson that will never be vandalised, always maintained, and never have more than a 2 vehicle queue.
You only need to have such concerns if you accept the (straw man) argument that EVs must be suitable for all purposes in all situations. The chances are we won’t see a lot of electric B-doubles or tractors in the next few years either.
Another aspect of this rarely mentioned is that come the day that there is a high proportion of EVs is what kind of service will the remaining ICEs get? Will there be any price competition at all for fuel, will new generation of mechanics be able to service them and will there be any new service stations established in new developments that sell fuel at all?
Not the only challenge.
Assuming,
It will be something keenly followed by many. The greatest benefit to emissions reductions will come from electrifying the vehicles that get the most use - kilometres, and have the best access to charging infrastructure. Assuming these are mostly used for business the customer benefits will also be measurable. That opportunity is recognised in part of the promise.
Note:
There are many more private use vehicles though, of which the majority are relatively low annual use - kilometres. It will be interesting to see how government investment and support is prioritised. Australia does not yet have a domestic BEV manufacturing industry, hence demand will be met from imported vehicles. That in itself may be a drag on the economy, and impact exchange rates adversely. Reality - global price inflation, international competition/demand and supply chain concerns.
At current new vehicle prices, if I was still working full time self employed it would be a simpler decision, assuming the promised changes are acted on. Access to charging infrastructure away from home or a base would be the greatest risk/need for maximising the benefits. Alternately as a private owner those concerns don’t exist, due to lower kms and a more limited area of use. The payback in the second instance social/moral more than any cash benefit.
Triple the range and usage time means triple the charge and downtime. How much does it cost now to charge an electric vehicle? What capacity are the batteries? I’m a bit of a skeptic until I can get clear answers.
Skepticism aside, considering my needs.
A clear answer might be
- it would cost next to nothing ($4-$8 based on current feed in tariffs foregone) to charge an EV from the home PV,
- the time taken is not a concern as it can be charged when parked in the garage at home,
- the capacity of the battery will always be adequate when driven no further than it provides. (Factually we’ve not driven more than 200km in a single day in the past 2.5 years.)
A more reliable appraisal would require any prospective purchaser to build a data table of how they use their motor vehicle. Kilometres driven each day, the hours in use and where parked when not in use. Setting out with the details of your chosen EV hopefully it should not be too challenging to determine how often and where best to charge the vehicle. Some models offer extended/long range options if that is important. There are online reviews and specification sheets that provide guidance on every model’s operating range real world, battery options and charging needs (fast DC charging, to home AC charge adaptors - various capacities are available).
The answer found for some of us may be the EV preferred cannot meet our daily needs.
Or
It may meet our needs 95% of the time. The decision following to best change how we use the EV for the other 5%. For 2 car families the transition may be simple with the other vehicle possibly an older ICE meeting that 5%. That’s our interim plan for towing the tandem trailer and 2 tonne loads.
Others have already decided. It is only the price point or availability in our handicapped Aussie market putting the decision off.
Thank you. Great reply, and adds a bit of practicality for consideration. The last 2.5 years have not been normal for travel anyway. Charging at home is very handy for urban commuters but beyond that it remains a mystery.
There has been discussion that using a vehicle for V2H may have implications for existing battery warranties. Telsa has already indicated that it will void any battery warranty if their vehicle batteries are used as a home storage (incidentally their vehicles are currently not V2H but rumours suggest that they have modified their battery warranties to ensure backyard DIY don’t try to do it and also in preparation for the introduction of V2H in the future).
There has been chatter that since Telsa has made a move, others may be reviewing their own positions.
The concern for V2H is the increased charging and discharge cycling that is outside the control of the car manufacturers, and in control of the utilities and/or homeowners. As the current from V2H is likely to be low, the additional current effects are likely not to come into play.
If V2H becomes a mandated feature of EVs and is required for domestic EV charging connections, it will be interesting to see how vehicle manufacturers respond and if they adjust their battery warranties to deal with increased cycling degradation V2H may cause.
If one plans to purchase an EV vehicle and use it for V2H, I would be getting written confirmation if and/or the impacts on battery warranty. The last thing a consumer needs is a battery warranty claim to be denied as the manufacturer claims misuse or unreasonable battery charge/discharge cycling.
Of course. Of the 9 ‘Things’ in the following link 7 and 9 are most relevant.
He (Nissan Australia national manager of electrification and mobility Ben Warren) says Nissan’s eight-year/160,000km battery warranty is not impacted by bi-directional charging, as long as the charger you use has been approved for use by Nissan.
Bidirectional charging explained: Using EV as a home battery | RACV
Hopefully the RACV can be relied upon in this instance.
Personally we would only need V2H as a backup to going off grid with a home storage battery. Based on 4 years Solar PV history and consumption records we only require a 6kWh battery to meet needs on 85-90% of the days in the year. A 12kWh home battery would meet needs on >95% of the days. Hence V2H is just a top up option for the balance.
V2G is likely to have the greatest appeal with retailers or suppliers as means of expanding their VPP capacity with minimum capital commitment. Possibly also one way to lock a consumer into their customer base. Note AGL for one has made a small first step into the EV world.
https://next.agl.com.au/ev-subscription?utm_campaign=Adwords&utm_source=ppc&utm_medium=AGLBrandCampaign&utm_term=ElectricCarSubscriptions&utm_content=DynamicAds&utm_term=agl%20ev%20subscription&utm_campaign=226+-+AGL+Brand+Campaign&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=1398578042&hsa_cam=12404338449&hsa_grp=118625964672&hsa_ad=548315226915&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-1085258935569&hsa_kw=agl%20ev%20subscription&hsa_mt=e&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgPufyduf-AIVs51LBR3lKg2REAAYASAAEgLt7fD_BwE
I won’t mean much when there is a warranty claim or dispute. One will need to get it in writing to ensure that know where they stand in relation to using a car vehicle for V2H.
Regular charging and discharging is known to reduce the capacity of batteries in the long term. The more charging and discharging, the greater the impact (especially is it occurs over normal transport use of a vehicle). I suspect that the impacts of V2H on car battery systems won’t be known for some time…as each operating environment has the potential to be different. When more vehicles use V2H, more will be known on the likely scale of the impact. Conservative battery management practices are important for maintaining the longevity of the batteries.
It is also worth noting that Nissan could rely on this exclusion in their standard warranty:
Normal wear and tear meaning the gradual reduction in operating performance of a part or parts having regard to the age of the vehicle, the distance it has travelled and its operating conditions.
Vehicle dependent.
It’s not a warranty statement, but it would seem incredulous for Nissan to say that V2G/V2H is an acceptable use providing you use a charger they approve of, and subsequently say it’s use voids warranty?
The link is real, it is not the only promotion by Nissan or reported by media that Nissan support V2G for the Nissan Leaf.
Any doubts, Nissan is directly supporting 1 of 2 trials of V2G in Australia.
The other trial also involving Nissan Leaf vehicles involves AGL.
Nissan Leaf Vehicles were also used in a 3 year trial in the UK, commenced in 2018.
Yes, by all means check the wording before you buy. Happy if anyone can produce a clause (factual evidence) in the Australian Nissan Leaf contract T&Cs that excludes V2G or voids warranty. So far it’s purely speculation Nissan would do so.
There is more than anecdote to show Nissan is supportive of V2G use of the Leaf. Whether others will follow, it seems likely.
P.S.
The one concern I’d raise with V2H/V2G in Australia at present is availability and extreme cost of suitable chargers approved for connection to the Aussie electricity network.
It wasn’t indicated that they would void the warranty. They could chose to reduce the thresholds for the battery warranty based on the likely cycling rates. Say the rates doubled degradation of the battery, the warranty could be halved or the charge capacity at the end of the warranty period reduced. V2H is still an unknown for the car and electricity industry and it is likely car manufacturers will review warranties when more is known about its likely impacts on battery life.
First hand experience indicates that a network operator for V2H connected vehicles won’t use impact on battery life to determine network support at critical times, providing support to keep the network operational will be the key driver. Likewise, it is unlikely V2H car owners will model battery impacts (inc cost of accelerated degradation) from cycling their EV battery and weighing up whether it is worth it when compared to potential network savings.
If one plans to purchase a V2H EV and use the function, it is important that clarification on the warranty is in writing at the time of purchase. If it isn’t and the impacts become a significant cost to car manufacturers through warranty claims, they may try and wriggle out of the standard warranty citing misuse or not normal wear and tear.
I wouldn’t rely on something reported online that someone said. Written commitment is needed.
Cost of V2H chargers should reduce over time with economies of scale…but, if car companies force consumers to purchase and use OEM V2H chargers to maintain warranties, then they may chose to set costs like existing OEM aftermarket products - namely expensive compared to non-OEM alternatives.
I do not see that as being how it is, however sometimes it’s not worth furthering a discussion on how flat or round the earth is.
I’ll just put that down as a suggestion Nissan cannot be relied upon to honour it’s warranty or commitments to V2G, an owner accessible feature built into the Nissan Leaf?
My original point raising V2H/V2G was not to disagree over warranty. It is a feature I want from an EV. Without it I’ll continue to burn petrol for many more miles than I might need to. Am I concerned about the warranty being adversely impacted. No more than any other term in the warranty. There are numerous independent sources and projects reported including reputable organisations relating to V2G and the Leaf for reference.
Even Tesla is covering it’s position, somewhat straddling the fence. Of course Tesla EV’s could be seen to be competing against the companies Powerwall products which have common battery technology.
This is exactly why I suggested above to get in writing, confirmation on the warranty if a vehicle is used for V2H. None of the written warranties I have seen have terms which specifically address V2H (except for Telsa which has indicated at this stage warranties are voided if the car battery is used for home storages) and why it is important. I would not be hoping that you will be covered - it is too late to find out in the good part of a decade if and when a warranty claim is made.
V2H currently isn’t a use covered by warranties, only normal operation of a vehicle for transportation purposes. As V2H is only available in a limited number of EV at this point of time (possibly more as marketing position) and if and when it can be used for grid support remotely by network operators, it is likely that warranties will reflect this change in use. One shouldn’t assume that since warranties today are silent, it means the batteries warranty will be covered as home/network storage - in reality the contrary will occur as uses outlined in warranties will be that considered normal use. Will use of a EV battery for home storage/grid support impact on the life if a battery. Evidence is yes, but the magnitude of impacts will depend on discharge/recharge cycling frequencies which is still very much an unknown. If one uses V2H and it significantly impacts on battery life and isn’t expressly covered by warranty, the cost a consumer may face is $10Ks to replace an underperforming battery pack. This is why a consumer needs to confirm warranty implications before making a decision to purchase a EV with planned future V2H use.
