With NBN, distance from node determines speed

Assume you know the node cabinet might be up to nearly 1,000m of copper distant and it will be located on the copper network between the exchange and your house. Any node further down the road and away from the exchange is no use to you as your copper will not run past it.

Good luck getting configuration details from the NBN Co. It is probably legally protected information or subject to a security assessment.

Your ISP/RSP should be able to tell you how far you are from the node as it affects the speed they can offer?

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That is exactly what I told my ISP (iinet) last week (again).
And they are adamant that they haven’t got a clue.

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No doubt about it. Revealed in this story are some interesting statements from the NBN Co.

One key statement attributed to the ACCC,
“As we’ve said previously, we expect RSPs to provide consumers with accurate information up front about the Internet speeds they can expect to receive, and then deliver on those promises,” Sims said.
“NBN Co provides retailers with estimated attainable line speed data prior to an order being placed over the NBN access network,” an NBN spokesperson said.”

At the very least iiNet should be able to confirm the available line speed. Rod Sims has said so!

We are still to hit the brick wall you just hit? The NBN Co may still wonder why customers are so loath to switch once they do have a service available?

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They are one of many, apparently, who don’t have a clue and have no idea how to get one regardless of anything except their ‘plans’. Such a great program is the NBN assuring nothing but the best fit for purpose infrastructure and product and retailer relationships. Oops fell off my chair again. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Was he speaking whilst boiling his spaghetti fuelled arsenal?

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This is a NBNCo problem not an RSP based one. See my response to your reply in another topic:

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and @vombatis reported he unsuccessfully tried to get information from both, and as you foretold in your answer in the other thread,

My sympathies and a bit off topic but I understand the frustration because NBNCo often seems to work in a parallel universe to a universe not yet discovered. I just got off the phone with them and the disconnect in what they would (could?) tell me was near breath taking. Basically NBNCo think I have HFC to my house but I do not and the contractors tasked to do that have been and gone on my street with every address on my street needing attention in their work orders except mine.

After circling the problem and getting no where, I restated the situation and how reality and NBNCo information disagree, and closed with ‘It appears the only thing you can tell me is I need to trust you and if it is not connected when general availability for my area is announced in June 2019, I need to ring back and it might be another 6 months to get the HFC to my house, right?’ NBNCo rep replies ‘yes’.

Bottom line is you can trust them or not, it will work out the same. Many of us are apparently sharing the joy :roll_eyes:

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A FOI request (lodge one with NBNCo) can usually elicit an answer when it is non forthcoming in any other way as since 11 June 2011 the FOI Act applied to the Company and the nbn itself. Also a complaint to ACMA is a worthwhile effort (this will generally not get an answer but it certainly adds to the NBNCo growing list of complaints) as it will influence what will happen in the future re legislation and processes.

Contact with the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman may not get a response either but it will add to the list similar to the ACMA one. Then there is the contact with the Ministers responsible for Telecommunications (Senator the Hon. Mitch Fifield, Senator the Hon. Bridget McKenzie) and the local Federal members both Senate and House of Reps can yield fruit.

While these processes are/can be cumbersome they may get a better response than what has already been forthcoming. When contacting the NBNCo it is always useful to do it in writing/email as I note @vombatis has done and add in that if no response is forthcoming that the request under FOI will follow (which may be different to their past communications). As a consumer give a reasonable time frame for response eg 7 or 14 days (5 or 10 business days) and if no answer fire off the FOI.

Node information may be treated as sensitive information and could be withheld under those provisions but I think that is a bit of a stretch unless you were asking which Node supplies the PM’s house or similar high profile person or business.

Again as I mentioned I would start the NBN connection anyway by getting the connection at the lowest “guaranteed” speed ie 25/5 for most connections. Then step up the tiers until a limit of speed had been reached…most FTTN/FTTC should get to the 50/20 tier and a smattering of others may get the 100/40 and a small group will be at or close to the 25/5 package as their limit.

Trying to get speed info before connecting is generally not productive for reasons I have outlined previously.

If FTTN, it is no better to know where the node is before connecting than after the connection has taken place. The node may help get a rough idea of possible speeds but the reality of how the far copper travels to your home can be much longer or in a worse state of repair than what the node’s placement can indicate.

If the travel is much further or the copper is too degraded a user may think to sign up for 100/40 based on placement. This may achieve 50/20 or 25/5 and as the guarantee is only for 25/5 then the user won’t get any rectification of the line and will just have to reduce their speed tier. The outcome will be that the user has paid out for a 100/40 plan in the first month rather than a 25/5 or a 50/20 plan. The unlimited traffic is probably the more important issue when signing up and determining the traffic needs eg do you want/need unlimited traffic or is some set limit a better choice. Speed then is something to mull on after getting the package.

If FTTP or FTTC then the speed may be something to consider before signing but @vombatis seems to be indicating it is a FTTN area and so my advice is sign up at 25/5 and see if more speed is attainable after rather than expecting to know before line length or quality is known. Once connected on FTTN then a more accurate line length (or the “determined” line length) can be ascertained by the RSP when they can conduct proper testing of the connection.

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Our Internode Gold 50 Mbps service was working intermittenlly on Friday and Saturday so Internode arranged a technician to repair it today.

An NBN technician found that our connection in the pit out the front of our home was very badly corroded to the point of failing and he fixed it.

As previously posted, I had beleived that it was failing as our old analogue telephone service was noisy before we changed over to the NBN.

Despite the noisy line and being 400 metres from the node, we still managed to achieve close to nameplate download and upload speeds for the past couple of years.

And we certainly can’t complain that it was fixed on the next business day after we called Internode.

Well done Internode and NBN.

image

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A quick update. Whilst I was at our local Coles this afternoon, my mobile rang.

It was the same lady at Internode who I spoke with on Friday afternoon.

She called to check if everything was now working correctly and said to call back if we have any further problems.

And the problem was not caused by Internode but by the ageing copper cable and connectors in the street.

How good is that for telephony service in this day and age?

image

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Nice to hear you received good customer service :+1:

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I signed up to the FTTN 12 Mbps (nominal 12 Mbps)
and installed an ACCC Sam Knows white box in order to see what speeds I am getting.
My RSP (iinet) has told me that now that I am connected they can “see the line” and think it might support “up to 70 Mbps”
The ACCC Sam Knows white box report shows for my download speed:-

  • March minimum 9.2 Mbps
  • March maximum 11.4 Mbps
  • April minimum 4.1 Mbps
  • April maximum 11.5 Mbps
  • May minimum 6.7 Mbps
  • May maximum 11.4 Mbps

… which doesn’t inspire confidence that my connection (copper wire to a node in another street, then fibre) is capable of higer speeds …

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There are two distinct and independent but cross related aspects to your speed. One is the maximum attainable on the technology. That will always be somewhat less than the peaks because of basic server and router overheads. 95% is not so bad.

The second is as or more important, the CVC your ISP contracts from the NBN, and the ‘headroom’ their servers have to process their load. You minimums suggest your ISP has one or both of overloaded equipment and/or insufficient CVC contracted from NBN with too many customers for what they have. Their servers also might be configured to preference those with higher bandwidth plans to your detriment. Perhaps those with the 50 plans might be getting as bad a service as yourself compared to what they bought.

Your FTTN might (or might not) be good enough to support 70, but it appears your RSP is not.

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The results you post on maximums are in line with your chosen speed tier. I would not expect higher than around 11.5 Mbps on a 12 Mbps plan. This is because there are some overheads which impact your noted line speed as tested/reported by your ACCC box. Link speed will probably report closer to the 12 Mbps speeds you are seeking but this is something you don’t normally see but your router/modem may report it in the Summary/Management section of it’s menu.

The minimums as @PhilT explained are the result mostly of the CVC your Retail Service Provider (RSP) buys from NBN Co. and are not generally a reflection of a poor line (though there could be line issues if it happens to coincide with wet weather but is unlikely). Telstra provide a table of expected estimated speeds obtainable during peak and non peak times. For their 12/1 plans Peak Times (between 7 PM & 11 PM) they expect typical (note this is not a guaranteed speed just a typical) speed of downloads to be around 9 Mbps and typical uploads to be around 0.8 Mbps. 12/1 non peak speeds they estimate to be typically around 11 Mbps download & 0.9 Mbps uploads. I think your results while not a perfect reflection of this do match to some decent extent what would be typical.

You also need to take into account for the minimums you have things like extra online time for students during holidays eg Easter in April when many more users are online and would really impact CVC allocations. March with I expect most students at school shows reasonable minimums and May possibly again reflects holidays. What would be more telling is the average and perhaps median speeds achieved during all these periods but I am unsure if you can get this detail from your participation with the ACCC program. I do know that with the CHOICE Broadband Provider Performance measurement program that the participants are getting a more detailed individual monthly report of their results (currently in closed Beta).

What your RSP is advising is likely the truth ie they can support higher line speeds and as the tiers are rigid ie 12/1, 25/5, 50/20, 100/40 then with a maximum possible supported line speed of ~70 Mbps download the best fit (bang for buck) is probably the 50/20 one if you need the extra speed.

Typically until the RSP can test the FTTN line after connection they cannot say with any certainty what speeds you are likely to get as until then they cannot determine the calculated line length, SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio), & Attenuation. FTTN as you stated uses digital signals both over fibre (low attenuation so capable of very good distances and usually very good SNR values so very little corruption) and copper (much higher attenuation so limited distance and if in good condition it has reasonable SNR). Using special line tests the RSP can then determine the SNR, Attenuation, and a line length (based on test results so if the line is poor the result can show as a longer distance) between the node and your premises.

Just in case anyone is interested I have provided some basic explanation of SNR and Attenuation. More detail about them is easily found on the web if required/desired.

SNR is the difference between the received signal and the background noise on the line measured in dB (decibels). As an example if the background noise (noise floor) is -80 dB and the signal is -75 dB then the SNR is 5 dB (not a big difference so a very poor SNR) and would result in data corruption and thus lots of re-sends of data if a connection could even be maintained. If the noise floor is again -80 dB and the received signal is -50 dB the SNR is 30 dB (an outstanding level of difference) and the likelihood of data corruption and thus re-sends is much less. For a connection a SNR of around 25 dB is recommended particularly for voice communications but is also good for data. Anything less than 15 dB is not good.

Attenuation (signal loss or loss) is also measured generally in decibels (but can be also measured in terms of Voltage) and is the measurement of loss in the cable (or radio signal) strength over distance eg Fibre has depending on type of fibre and the light wavelength an attenuation coefficient between 3 and 0.2 dB per kilometre, while copper attenuation is often measured in metres. There is always loss in signal whether digital or analog over distance and the lower the loss the better the cable quality is (or the conditions between dishes/antennas for radio signals).

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Participants in the ACCC broadband performance measuring program:-

  1. get detailed individual monthly reports
  2. can sign in anytime and see their daily raw measurement data files
  3. download their data anytime

National data can be seen at Broadband performance data | ACCC

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Thank you for the clarification of what detail you as a participant can get from the ACCC testing. The average speeds then as I suggested will be more enlightening than just simple max and min. Also looking at when they drop each day and how often this happens will tell you more about CVC allocation. You should expect that speeds will drop down from around 5pm or 6 pm until about 10pm or 11 pm weekdays and weekends probably will have longer periods of lower speeds. Also see if lag/latency is greater during any of these slower periods as this will help indicate if the entire nbn™ network has congestion issues rather than just your network supplier having low CVC.

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The honestybox does seem a little pessimistic from what I’ve seen - unsure of their actual testing method - and they do some curious DNS lookups :slight_smile:

A Huawei Australian Executive has punched the nose of the Australian Govt and said that the nbn™ is a failure to deliver. While this may be an expected criticism as it comes from Huawei, the critique however seems to stand on some merit. The article certainly picked the FTTN as a major issue but the Fixed Wireless was also outed by Mr Soldani. Further into the article the push about Huawei came to the fore as Mr Soldani stated that it “makes no sense for Australia to continue to exclude the world’s leading 5G technology provider from the marketplace – especially when we have a proven track record of delivering the kind of quality services that Australians so badly need”. But aside from that again the performance (or lack thereof) of the nbn™ to deliver a “World Class” service was hard to argue against.

To read the article see:

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Meanwhile back on the farm!

3-4,000km from the nearest NBN node might be the perfect answer to getting the best Internet service, at a reasonable cost.

Starting in the small regional township of Queenstown. Currently they only have a shoddy 1Gbps service that costs between $75NZ and $100NZ per month. Shameful :roll_eyes:

What next?
Australia could do worse than dissolve parliament and become part of NZ. Next the Trans-Tasman bridge and tunnel link with Chinese sponsored island rest stops every 50km.

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Hi,

I’m a telco expert for the last 35 year. In the past the power specs (TX Power and RX sensitivity) of modems were quite important to ensure cable losses and such can be negated with the application of the right modem. I have many customers who now move over to the NBN (forcibly) and the default modems supplied by their ISP is not suitable for longer cable runs for FTTN applications. In my humble opinion I have never read anything relating to modem specification and this modem is better than that modem due to higher TX power levels and RX sensitivity. Surely this is a critical piece of equipment and if the ISP’s provide cheap low spec modems it will definitely add to the speed and customer satisfaction problems.

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Welcome to the formum @JohndP. It has been a while but that aspect was indirectly mentioned a while back as an SNR setting in some (then ADSL) modems.

My understanding is the SNR setting essentially does that. When the SNR is changed for ‘more performance’ the modem runs hotter indicating higher power levels. My old Billion has a dark spot from heat :wink:

At the time forums also mentioned that (ADSL) ISPs were not always happy about the customer setting his/her equipment like that, but some of the friendlier ones would set their own side to ‘performance’ if asked.

I can understand the NBN is after bland reliability such as they are able to provide, and the defaults are meant to deliver that, are they not?

Since FTTN has reared its head it is good you re-introduced this aspect for those so afflicted.

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