Vehicle Service Schedules / Access to Manufacturer Information

In the Jazz we have it requires very light oil 5W-20 as the oil pressure sensor gets erratic with heavier oils (and Honda advise 15W-40 cannot be used due to this problem), more current Honda cars use even lighter oils eg 0W-20. From the Honda FAQs"

I-CDTI and I-DTEC Diesel Engines

For the i-CDTi and i-DTEC diesel engines the recommended oil for Western European driving conditions and weather conditions is fully synthetic motor oil meeting the minimum specification ACEA C2/C3. The recommended viscosity is 0W-30.

Petrol Engines

For all petrol engines, excluding Hybrid models, the recommended oil for Western European driving conditions and weather conditions is a semi-synthetic motor oil meeting the minimum specification ACEA A1/B1. The recommended viscosity range is between 0W-20 to 10W-40.

Hybrid Petrol Engines

A unique Hybrid Green Oil has been developed by Honda. This new oil not only improves the performance characteristics in all driving conditions but also has the additional advantages of not only improved fuel economy, being environmentally friendly and is the first oil developed specifically for Hybrid engines.

Note: 15W-40 cannot be used in vehicles equipped with an oil level sensor. If you put 15W-40 oil in an engine with an oil level sensor, the sensor may indicate an incorrect oil level reading.

What’s the difference between synthetic and mineral Oil?

Synthetic lubricants are made up of molecules that have been modified under complex chemical processes and allow for enhanced performance under extreme conditions of temperature, pressure and forces. Mineral lubricants are composed of molecules present in crude oil that are separated in the distillation process at a refinery."

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Looks like very low and high engine temperatures can degrade engine oils in different ways…

Maybe manufacturers consider Australia to be a high engine temperature environment and thus resulting in more rapid degradation of engine oils. Resulting in more regular servicing that our European counterparts?

I wonder if one can get around this by servicing ones car say in late autumn…then the lubricants benefit from cooler operating temperatures (unless one puts the engine under high load such as 4WDing or towing) and then will rapidly degrade over the following summer…ready for a change in the following autumn? Practicalities of this…and everyone servicing in late autumn would kill a businesses cash flow.

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It sounds plausible, and is often a topic for discussion without a clear outcome.

Do we need a detailed technical appraisal? I doubt anyone will stake their reputation or personal liability on assuring an outcome based on a longer service interval then the manufacturer recommends.

There is a lack of definitive alternate evidence to support behaving differently. There is variation between different models, in how they are used, in driver style and quality variation within a single model variant.

Are consumers being taken advantage of as suggested by the original topic article concerning Subaru commended service intervals? Yes IMHO.

This is about much more than just engine lubrication?
A discussion on what is the best choice of engine oil vs service for a motor vehicle is worthy of it’s own topic and discussion.

P.S. or down the rabbit hole, if anyone is wondering.
Please excuse the generalisation. The following is intended only to outline some of the issues or scope around a discussion on motor oils.

There are endless discussions on motoring focused forums about engine oil types and selection. Many only encourage confusion and inconsistency. Some serve very particular interest groups. The industry is awash with marketing hype and a multitude of competing products. And manufacturers are all progressively updating engine designs.

As a simple head spin read the attached link. It is pure marketing wrapped around some basic technical detail.

For Australia which has very limited requirements to deliver low emissions, and also fuel costs well below Europe, there is more latitude in what we are able to import as product.

Engine technology in use today varies between light alloy construction, high tech multipoint fuel injection, variable valve timing, computer control (ECU), to designs still rattling away with a single point fuel injection system, and cast iron! And that is without considering turbos!

Places like the USA, Southern Italy and Spain all see similar summer conditions or worse, than most of coastal Australia where 90% of our vehicles are driven. Even Tokyo is known for humid 30-35C wet summers?

Cars in Europe and Japan probably do much stop start and short distance driving. No different to downtown Sydney or Melbourne really?

Simple comparison might be enough to reason that for a typical motor vehicle in urban Australia the servicing needs should be no different than most other big motoring nations. Notably given Aust is a little slacker about pollution controls and emission performance we might even be able to relax how often some servicing needs are met.

If there are international exceptions they might reasonably relate to driving in sub zero conditions or the Simpson desert daily.

For technical simplicity the manufacturers recommended grade (EG 5W-30) and minimum specification of engine oil is important. What ever the grade recommended it will typically suit an Aussie vehicle for the whole of the year. We also typically do not have genuine endless extremes of cold (eg Canada winter) or heat (Central Australia summer) in Sydney, Melb etc.

The car makers oil specification (eg expresses by a code such as SF, SN, etc) is a minimum standard. Higher specification oils may last longer in service. Synthetic oils are highly refined and modified (chemically manipulated) made from the same feed stock as everyday mineral oils. As a consequence the synthetic modified products are more stable and have less variation in the chemistry, they handle higher temperatures (nothing to do with the outside environmental temperature) in the engine better and have the ability remain usable for a longer service life. That is assuming the engine oil blender has not skimped on the additives package. Many quality base oils remain usable in service past life of their additives.

Most engine wear is attributed to limited lubrication when an engine is first started. Having the recommended grade of engine oil for the service environment plus the quality of the additive package is critical to minimising this wear. All other attributes or properties of oils used for ICE engine lubrication there after quickly descend into the mire of expert disagreement and amateur ignorance. Cold sub zero winters are more of a challenge for engine lubrication on starting than Australia’s milder climate.

Once up and running 99.99% of engine lubrication relies on the viscosity of the lubricating fluid. And modern engines quickly achieve a stable running temperature. The same operating temperature whether the engine is in a Darwin summer or Canberra winter.

More modern engines with tighter clearances reduce oil loss (burning) which reduces emissions and also enables lighter grades (less viscose) engine oil to be used. This reduces engine friction caused by viscose drag between the moving parts of the engine which improves fuel economy.

Owners of high performance and older vehicles may have differing and some special needs.

Irrespective of the views of the more sceptical that service intervals are set based on profit margins at dealerships and spare parts sales.

Servicing to schedule is considered by many to be a good insurance policy against the unexpected breakdown. This seems to be self evident. Although the lack of hard evidence of an epidemic of broken down vehicles is not proof. There is also a large element of guilt driven marketing with the need to service often. Erring on the conservative or safer ground might also be wisdom, but is it necessary?

With more knowledge of each individual vehicle, usage patterns, and analysis of a sample of engine oil at each service, it would be possible to do better, and possibly run longer. Assessing each vehicle individually removes some of the uncertainties. The cost of the sample and analysis? About the same as the cost of the next basic service.
Cars now have enough smarts to track actual usage, performance cycles and condition. It could enable the trip computer to make an informed estimate of when the next service should be provided, rather than fixed time or distances alone?

However at least for the warranty period the intervals suggested are ultra conservative. It appears to serve several vested interests, including those of the owner.

For a better understanding and in-depth discussion Monash University and others offer post graduate studies in Engineering Maintenance (Terotechnology) and Tribology.

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I looked into buying a Kymco Scooter recently and came across the same issue. Service intervals were significantly more frequent in Australia. Do you seriously believe that conditions on Australian roads are harsher, hotter and dustier than in the Asian third world countries where they sell most scooters? (and where the specified service interval for the same scooter is 30% longer). Warranty period (capped price) servicing added up to 80% of the vehicle purchase price - but how often do buyers do that kind of math? I have no doubt that it’s all about fleecing the customer.

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10 posts were split to a new topic: Synthetic Engine Oils

It is worth reading the Consumer Report link in @PhilT post here…

Synthetic Engine Oils

as it discusses service intervals for vehicles. The Consumer Report, while a independent organisation similar to Choice, states you should still be getting that oil changed twice a year which is the same as the standard Auatralian Subaru service interval mentioned in the original post.

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I remember when I was looking at new cars one of the deciding factors was the warranty service intervals from memory Honda was 10,000 or 6 months Subaru was 12,500 or 6 months both were taken off my list. I thought I would do somewhere between 6000 and 8000k’s in 6 months I left Mazda on as they had I think 10,000/12 months but at the time only offered a 3 year warranty compared to others offering 5-7 years I ended up with Kia 15,000/12months and 7 years

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Is this not a cause that Choice might pick up @BrendanMays? It seems that Australian consumers are being ripped off by being forced to comply with excessive servicing regimes. In Europe a 2 year service interval is normal for some Diesel cars. Conditions in parts of Europe are no different to those in Australia (except maybe that they have higher mandatory fuel standards).

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It’s a good suggestion @samwardill, I’ll pass it on to our campaigns team. We’ve done articles before, but to be fair these are probably due for refreshing.

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I just looked at the articles. There is nothing on the industry wide issue of excessive servicing regimes. I made a contact on LinkedIn that might be useful (albeit he works in the industry). I’ll see if he is willing to explain. He would probably say it is due to the fuel standards but then that would still be a worthwhile cause for Choice to pursue. He has argued previously that Australia gets less developed country car models because we do not have developed country fuel standards. This is presumably because companies owning refineries in Australia lobby against tighter fuel standards. The knock on impact of this is that we also have lower emissions standards so more particulates & NOx are pumped into the atmosphere.

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It is not just vehicles, it is almost everything. Manufacturers were still selling VHS here like there was no tomorrow while the rest of the developed world had moved on to PVRs, then ‘we’ were blessed with SD PVRs while HD was rolling in. And so it goes. There is a history where ‘we’ seem to be the last dumping ground of choice (no pun intended) for most all outmoded, superseded technologies and products.

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This is the guy https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurt-mcguiness/. I will ask him but Choice might get more response @BrendanMays

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Thanks for the info, much appreciated :+1:

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A post was split to a new topic: Australia’s weaker emission standards

Having been retrenched and suddenly using my Toyota Corrola much less, Toyota continued to undertake the service regime appropriate for a car being driven many more kilometres. With the car out of warranty and after a very expensive service, I shifted locally and was told Toyota should have been following the much less expensive servicing for lower kilometres which is indicated in the back of the servicing booklet. My mechanic maintains that the oil needs to be changed 6 monthly.

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Toyota or the Registered Motor Dealer who had a Toyota dealership agreement?

The car makers or the importers are one step removed from the customer. It would be interesting to hear from Toyota Australia on the behaviour of the dealer/service agent.

This highlights one of the great challenges for consumers in changing the motor vehicle industry. There is a firewall between the importer (who may be an extension of the manufacturer) and the customer, created by a sales and marketing focused organisation, the motor dealers!

Any call for change needs to target both layers directly.
The dealers would seem unlikely to ever agree to anything different to what the manufacturers/importers accept. And perhaps the vehicle importers or manufacturers have no desire to involve themselves in any way in the day to day operation of the motor dealers, to ensure the degree of separation remains?

Mark it was the Toyota dealership under Toyota’s name, but they were paranoid about getting positive reports from customers as anything less than near perfect feedback wasn’t seen as acceptable by Toyota they intimated. It’s a while back, but I stopped the feedback questionnaires as I didn’t want to deal with all the texts and emails. It was my impression they were under considerable pressure from Toyota to maintain Toyota’s reputation.

Those asset management /engineering off-campus maintenance postgrad programs were developed in MonashU days but continue from Federation Uni from Gippsland Campus. Students are engineers and senior technicians in the workforce all around Oz and overseas.

Harsher conditions do indeed cause more wear. We are all familiar with the instructions to “replace every xxxxx kms or yyyy months whichever occurs first”. It is incorrect to assume low mileage car does not need to comply with the time period. A good example would be timing belts. Even if a vehicle has had “local shops only” use, fumes and atmospheric conditions will compromise belts and failure can be catastrophic. Find a local mechanic with a good reputation and be guided by him.

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A bad example would be platinum spark plugs. Whether 12 or 120 months old, at 22,000 km they do not need to be replaced just because their time is up. They might need replacing if the get damaged or degraded, but not time - unless an expert can correct me on that.

Most service schedules assume 15K or 20K km p.a. and schedule such replacements accordingly. I had to replace a perfectly good set just because and was not happy, but the choice was to void the remaining warranty or not.

Some bits degrade with time or environment such as belt and hoses and rubber-ish type things, and others don’t. Some bits such as cam belts can be costly if they fail so prudence is warranted, others such as spark plugs don’t have the same gravity.

I subscribe to that good advice.

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