Unscientific research

I think you’re over-complicating a simple message.

Not always the case. The placebo affect can often make you feel like you’re getting better when in fact you’re not and may need further attention. Additionally it may leave your wallet a lot lighter…

I’m not saying this is the situation at hand, but unfortunately you can’t take one positive experience and use it to offset mountains of proof. That is exactly what unscientific conclusions are. A one off result that doesn’t line up with peer reviewed research and is not measurable or repeatable

Are we considering two different propositions?

There are instances where a particular opinion or outcome is argued on the basis of incomplete facts, misdirection or outright falsehoods. Often said data does not meet accepted standards of proof required by independent authority. Sometimes this is labelled as quackery or fraud. Rejection by the greater scientific community follows. The less scientifically inclined community is often left confused and vulnerable to suggestion.

There are other circumstances where alternate opinions are presented that challenge accepted scientific thinking. It is part of scientific progress. The challenge is how do we separate this thinking from the previous, whether it is the possibility of time travel, or early sailors challenging the notion that the earth is flat and you might sail over the edge if you go to far?

That Magellan circumnavigated the globe only needed to be done once to prove the earth was roundish, despite prior and substantive supporting evidence.

Time travel in a Dr Who sense might be deniable. To suggest that large distances between galaxies might be travelled in apparent minutes of time, similar to using the Tardis might be possible. Einstein proposed the possibility with his theories. NASA provided absolute evidence in one way with time differences between atomic clocks, one of which had been travelling through space.

It would seem simple enough?
Now where did I leave that police blue house paint? :roll_eyes:

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tpeter267;I do know what the placebo effect is.

BTW mark_m; what is the secret of police blue house paint?

It does seem that way. What we have here is a distraction.

Distraction is characteristic of Lomborg. Where one argument proves untenable, he’ll shift the focus of discussion:
Reality of climate change undeniable? Shift focus to costs of mitigation (while obfuscating costs of inaction).
Substantial agreement on reality of climate change? Shift focus to manufactured disagreement (the Merchants of Doubt gambit).

Another common characteristic is convoluted rationalisation. The more convoluted, the less rational - and the less true.

The tactics make for fascinating study.

Back on topic:
Dr William McBride.
Predetermined outcome: proof of drug-induced birth defects.
One hit, Thalidomide (credit for research done by Professor Widukind Lenz).
One miss, Debendox (leading to Dr McBride being struck off the medical register).

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Here is a good example posted by @Fred123 on another thread…

RF Radiation and cancer - smart meters, mobile phones and WiFI
RF Radiation and cancer - smart meters, mobile phones and WiFI

Unfortunately when such information gets to mainstream media as facts, it is very difficult to retract the information later.

It also provides food for the conspiracy theorists who think that mobiles phones and their radiowaves cause harm. It provides fodder for their claims even if it is incorrect and has been discredited (think the Dr Wakefield Vaccination/Autism studies which some still believe to be true). Retracting and discrediting by a government of scientific institution only reinforces their conspiracies as these organisations are complicit to the ‘coverup’.

It depends on how logical or complicated we would like to make the discussion.

The simple answer is it is one of the few things that I know about building the Dr Who TV series time travelling machine, aka the Tardis. In a child like way, that has little scientific reasoning, if you wish to create a working Tardis it appears to be constructed from timber in the style of a UK Police Box and is a certain shade of blue. I have yet to work out how to make it bigger on the inside than it appears on the outside. However if I can recreate the outside in the true spirit of unscientific research, I expect I am onto a winner in claiming credit for my research into time travel.
/add a frivolous smile.

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Proscriptive.

/pedant off

My understanding is that thalidomide was an interesting case, but feel free to correct what I say next. The drug was developed in post-Nazi Germany, and based upon Nazi science. A lot of the original test information had been ‘lost’ at the end of the war (presumably because of how the tests were conducted), and so when thalidomide was synthesised in the 1950s many assumptions were made about its safety. It was never properly tested on pregnant animals or women - possibly because of those assumptions about its precursor drugs.

Thalidomide remains an incredibly useful drug - but don’t take it while pregnant.

Just to add to this thread enormously, from McBride’s Wikipedia page (which mentions that he was reinstated as a doctor in 1998) I found a link to a very useful page.

The bad news? First person named is an Australian.

Cargo cult reasoning. Entirely sensible. It’s when you get to the Prince Philip Movement that you know you’ve over-stepped the bounds of polite religiosity.

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What will they do when he dies? Perhaps they will continue on as the Rastamen did (who worshipped Haile Selassie) and continue to worship his spirit in the hereafter.

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That is a poor definition. Scientific research is based upon hypotheses rather than facts. The only field of science in which you can actually prove a theory is mathematics.

Having been somewhat negative in my previous postings, I should really mention my own example of stuff that I take that is not scientifically proven to help.

I am strong in the arthritis, like my mother before me. Several decades ago I started taking Glucosamine, and have continued to take it ever since. A decade or two later I persuaded my mother to try it. She took it for two weeks and said “it has no effect”. I persuaded her to try it for longer, and a few years later when she went interstate she forgot to take her tablets with her and reported back that “It works!”

There is - at best - mixed evidence for the efficacy of Glucosamine in managing arthritis, but I am reasonably confident that my own would be far worse by now if I had not started taking it early and often - and my mother has also joined the cheer-leading squad based on her own experiences.

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From Wakefield’s report:

" “We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve the issues. If there is a causal link between measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and this syndrome, a rising incidence might be anticipated after the introduction of this vaccine in the UK in 1988. Published evidence is inadequate to show whether there is a change…”

Glucosamine is one of the building blocks of joints. So it may not be the most effective solution for those already experiencing pain (although it’s constantly sold as this). Where it comes into effect is when it’s taken over an extended period of time for people or animals at risk of developing/worsening conditions.

I actually learned about this in the context of animals though through my work in the area as well as general veterinary advice. So it’s definitely worth taking any claims with a grain of salt when it comes to humans.

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I have yet to meet a doctor who has a good knowledge of even quite common supplements, so telling him/her what you intend to take is pointless. They have probably never heard of it.

I became quite ill after taking a prescribed medication. My doc refused to accept the medication was the cause, even though I could tick several boxes on the side effects page. I saw another doctor, who agreed it was the medication that caused the problems, and diagnosed colitis. Apparently I could have it for life, as there was nothing he could recommend other than a ‘bland’ diet.

I did my research, went on a low fibre diet and took slippery elm before each meal. I was gradually able to add normal food, and was over the colitis in less than three months. This was not ulcerative colitis, an entirely different condition that really is difficult to cure.

It’s amazing what you can prove in mathematics - take zeta function regularisation and Ramanujan summation as ‘for instance’ :wink: Always makes me chuckle while thinking mathematicians are truly dark lords …

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There are other theoritical sciences such as quantum physics/mechanics, astronomy/theoretical physics, theoretical neuroscience (there are possibly others but can’t think of anymore at the moment)… which test theories in different ways to traditional scientific testing methods. In some fields, they are building massively expensive test equipment to try and test some of the theories. It is not known if the equipment will be suitable until the go button is pushed.

There are also dozens of slightly different meaning of science…depending on the author of the meaning.

I took the term ‘facts’ as meaning evidence. Science can include the testing of hypotheses to gain such evidence. Science also includes other methods for evidence gathering such as observations (such as through a microscope) and physical measurement (such as parts of physics) and other techniques which don’t necessarily have a hypotheses. There have been many scientific discoveries from these techniques, particularly in the early history of science.

It does and is used in cancer and inflammatory diseases treatment and can be prescribed in Australia only by specialists and pharmacists registered with the Pharmion Risk Management Program. The risks associated with potential pregnancy needs to be managed.

More research info on its effacy can be found here.

I would talk to my pharmacist rather than doctor. Their job is to answer such questions and they make a study of it. You don’t have to be taking a supplement, there are foods (eg grapefruit) that alter how prescription drugs act.

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Another plug for Choice, they had an excellent article on this issue a few years back…

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Each GP will be influenced by their own experience and past patients. Personally if I have an issue I disagree with a GP on I get a second opinion. I’d argue that system is a safer bet. It’s yet to let me down

Also remember thinking of things from the doctors perspective. They likely have a dozen patients every week who claim they’ve ‘done their research’ but have totally got it wrong. That’s why we have doctors in the first place.

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Nudging off-topic, but as the world changes, a year old but this is not a unique report.

Although

and Forbes is a business journal, not a scientific one.

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There is pure/theoretical mathematics and applied mathematics. In a modern sense there is an argument (and not one of scientific research) neither are science. Once that definition is accepted all work within the field of mathematics is literally ‘unscientific’?

Mathematics stands alone as an independent discipline. It is abstract or virtual, only attaining a physical presence when another non mathematical reality is to be observed or considered. Bitcoin might be a great analogy. They exist only as numbers and you can’t hold one.

Importantly, doubtful or unscientific research typically makes extensive use of mathematics in ways similar to scientific research. Mathematics is a tool, just as writing and language are tools. Mathematics is another way of describing something or reporting an observation.

Mathematics can be used to describe physical relationships observed in the real world. This contributes to one form of proof in science. It is a very different form of proof to that of relationships within mathematics. EG the relationship between sine, cosine, and tangent for a right angled triangle.

Mathematics only fails when it is connected in some way to the real world. Hence it deserves it’s unique place separate to science. As a tool for
delivering proof of science mathematics is blind. It will deliver a result when part of unscientific research just as dependably as for any other instance. Mathematics cannot even assure Blockchain results, because block chain is not pure mathematics in it’s entirety.

Where is the science in that?

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