Just can’t help wondering. what speeds and/or prices would have been offered by the major ISPs if we had FTTP nationwide? Any thoughts? (I’m sorry if this has been answered elsewhere)
2 Likes
Currently the top speed offered by NBN Co to RSPs for consumers is 1 Gbps but no RSP offers that to consumers as they say no one wants it (they don’t say how they found this out). Most forms of NBN connections cannot achieve this rate, FTTP is one of the few. Speed over FTTP in other parts of the World are up to 10 Gbps currently (limited places as yet), but theoretical speeds are very, very, much higher.
Pricing would not change too much from the way it is calculated now as the NBN is supposed to be commercially run (so it can be privatised). But in the future as implementation and purchase costs are paid off the prices should/would fall. Because so much of the MTM infrastructure will have to be replaced in around 10 years (copper failing) you can expect a much lengthened time for costs to be defrayed.
3 Likes
This is a bad outcome for you, but your ADSL experience has surely been at the 99.99 percentile, if not even more of an outlier.
My ADSL experience was 6-8 Mbps and multiple disconnections per day.
So my 12/1 Internode HFC NBN connection has been a generally good upgrade for me.
I could have a faster connection but don’t need it.
2 Likes
Thanks Grahroll. I read that with interest. Good that there are alternatives to the NBN
2 Likes
Gandoes - I’m with you. That’s exactly what I am going to do now the NBN is available in our street. I will tough it out for the next 18 months, as I am very happy with the 14Mbps that I get now, and I haven’t had a dropout or disconnection since ADSL2+ became available. I’m with Telstra, and Ive got a bundled plan that includes concessions for both the landline and mobile calls. Telstra told me this would not be possible, if I went on their new NBN plan - so why would I want to change.
2 Likes
Ah Prime Minister Trunbull has really done it… Now we really are third world.
Why is this country going backwards at the rate rate it is???
We had 20Mbps in 2007 and now in 2017 we have 10. This is a disgrace.
This isn’t a “choice” issue but that of voters - we have to vote them out.
1 Like
Grahroll,
Isn’t what we are charged for our NBN an arbitary figure that in no way relates to the true costs for each customer?
How ever NBN Co and the ISP’s and government choose to spin it the fixed cost of providing the NBN connection for each premise or business cannot be the same. It must vary between the easiest to reach customers in high density areas and those in the sprawling older suburbs of Melbourne and Sydney. Factors of ten or twenty times more costly!
You also need to add to this the cost of the backbone (back haul) connections and to the servers/data centres. Again depending on where the customer is the infrastructure costs to get the service from a data centre in Sydney to say Manly and Tony Abott’s electoral office vs a farmer near Tamworth are also greatly different per customer.
None of these costs really relate to the actual volume or speed of data.
The speed and volumes of data that can move around the NBN is infinitely greater than what we can concurrently consume - since most of us sit at the end of a dodgy piece of copper wire. So the current tiered speed and data volume pricing is just an artificial construct. One that for many users per above delivers no economic gain if you don’t need the extra speed! We are simply being asked to pay extra now with the new NBN services for the potential we might choose to use, as has been pointed out in other comments here.
The reality is that the NBN is not a true commercial enterprise whether you are A BIG “L” liberal or a small “l” liberal. If it was only the approx the 60% of Victorian and NSW customers who live in the big cities of Sydney and Melbourne and a few more in QLD etc would ever get the NBN.
The NBN is more a social experiment where the rest of Australia also gets the NBN - at a substantial subsidy due to the generosity of mainly Sydney and Melbourne and some in the other cities.
In my personal circumstances in a rural location it would have been better to bring the fibre into the local exchange. While Telstra and my ISP can’t say it is a lack of exchange capacity that holds our community back. Unfortunately slow connection speeds and lack of capacity are not well understood by most voters. Any way now thanks to the generosity of Sydney and Melbourne the new fibre network passes 5km to the east of town to save their costs. All is not lost! Close upon the route will be a new tower to beam microwaves around a whole network of towers in the district to service not only all of us who live within a 2km radius of the old exchange but those further away!
I’ll keep Choice up to date with the outcome of our giant wireless NBN and how it handles the many thousands of customers all on it at once!
And to be fair I understand just as the NBN is going to charge exactly the same for the service as though it were in central Sydney. Although why you should pay extra for a faster data rate on wireless when you actually use less connection time to consume the smae amount of data remains a mystery!
2 Likes
Under Rudd’s plan for the NBN any Town population >= 1,000 would have had Fibre. Taken from Rudd’s announcement quoted from the NBN Wiki [quote=“grahroll, post:7, topic:14546”]
100 times faster than those currently used by most people – extending to towns with a population of around 1,000 or more people
[/quote]
They envisaged at least 90% of the population connected to fibre.
But to your conundrum of Fixed Wifi…have your community seek (with Local Govt) an [quote=“grahroll, post:13, topic:14546”]
Area Switch:
Area switch enables an application for a whole area (e.g. a business park, town, CBD, or Multi Dwelling Unit (MDU)) via one contracting party.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn-about-the-nbn/network-technology/technology-choice-program/area-switch.html
[/quote]
Councils have been applying just there isn’t much detail out there yet:
2 Likes
Some of you act as if the only criteria to electing a Government is their NBN policy. I would suggest that in reality that was quite a way down in the public’s concerns.
I definitely agree that the Libs have completely stuffed this up - however because the Labs never really got the chance to build the NBN I wonder how well (or not) that would have turned out.
Governments of either persuasion don’t have a great track record in these things.
1 Like
That is correct, but voters can only prioritise their issues and then make decisions based on who is currently stuffing ‘it’ up.
1 Like
Somewhere recently I read that the average cost for a fibre connection was around $4500. The highest cost to a single dwelling for a fttp connection prior to moving to fttn was just under $50k. As we now know the taxpayer will ultimately be paying for the network (either through government subsidies to support the nbn or through connection costs), the question could be asked if this is the best use of taxpayers money (in effect removing the money from the economy for one infrastructure project)?
I am not sure if the economic benefit to residential premise of $4500 will ever be recouped, unless the house has a home based business which which relies on high speed connections. I see medium to large businesses will benefit from high speed connections, but they have the funds to pay for such connections.
It would have been good if a business case was prepared before launching into the nbn project, as we (the taxpayer) could have made more informed decisions on the real benefits, opportunity costs and disadvantages of the nbn. Instead we rely on politicians of every persuasion, (who know not much about networks) to make uninformed/uneducated decisions, posssibly for their own political interests. As a result, we get the current nbn.
1 Like
My current ISP for Naked DSL has advised me to “wait and see” also when I tackled them about poor speeds and high costs of fibre to the node being offered (pushed) in my area. His terminology was “wait until after the teething problems have been sorted out”
Six of the eighteen months have passed (I have until January 2019 before the copper wires get disconnected from ADSL at the local exchange). There are still no node cabinets in my street, but there are three cabinets in the next street so I fear there is quite a length of copper wire involved in any current FTTN offers.
Meanwhile although my DSL speeds aren’t quite as good as Gandoes I am paying $70 per month for Naked DSL, 200 GB, VoIP per month.
2 Likes
This might be a good fill-in for where that came from, what it means, and some comparative numbers.
3 Likes
As @PhilT linked to above the $4500 connection fee has been trotted out endlessly by the Govt & NBN Co. This is even used for areas that have Fibre cabling that feeds the Node out front of premises. Largely this was an initial cost of connecting a home to FTTP. But around the world in places such as the US, Canada, Singapore, NZ, the UK and myriad EU sites the real cost has dropped very substantially with US costs at about AU$2200 and NZ about AU$2400.
If talking population density, well yes the cost to connect a property in say the Simpson desert area would be extremely costly but NBN Co uses this very scenario to establish the average $4K cost using the Australian Average population data of approx 3 people per square kilometre. No one at this time is asking everyone to have a run of Fibre to their premises and it was always envisaged that some areas would for a long time be served by Fixed Wifi and Satellite.
Reality speaking here now is that most of the Australian population is close to or in major or substantial cities and towns (any town around 1,000 persons or greater was considered able to have Fibre). Somewhat of a larger cost to install Fibre was also so that large and dense Urban areas would have a higher cost than actual to subsidise the less densely populated areas so that their costs were lower than actual (equitable access).
NBN Co currently state that the cost is still $4500 so that when they discuss FTTC (Fibre to the Curb) at $2200 it looks so good for their new preferred method and people get sucked into this huge difference. Admittedly it is cheaper to use the last little bit of copper to the home to make the connection (around 70 metres or so) as no new conduit to the home has to be run nor does the fibre have to be run to the home. But FTTC still has some maturing to do, it is still being tested and FTTP is very mature tech. Ultimately FTTP has far greater capacity than FTTC to carry data and if you want (and you should want to) future proof your communications the initial outlay of fibre to the premises will be, and is, worthwhile as a national asset.
2 Likes
It could have been expected that average fttp connection costs over time may reduce due to efficiencies and economies of scale (spreading fixed costs such as contractor establishment, equipment depreciation, hardware purchases etc across greater number of connections).
The cost from the node to the premises could be less than the pre-fttn installation costs (assuming average $4500), as the upstream m of the jodes has alreadh been completed. However with establishment costs and gaining necessary approvals and permits (such as thise from councils) to work in road reserves for one connection, running fibre from the node to the premises could be similar to the $4500 average or less for simple extensions from the node to the residence (could be more, could be less). There is even chance that it could cost significantly more for longer or more difficult connections such as existing copper is not laid in conduits fully from the node to the premises (it is likely that the last street copper joint box to the premises would not be conduit and excavation would be required from this box to the wall of the premises).
I also understand thatn some of the high connection costs were due to connection to heritage listed residences, where additional approvals/consent/special design was required for the connection (as the heritage listing prohibitied any physical damage to the homes).
Irrespective of that, if the average cost is still several thousands for the node to residence fibre run. Something most residents won’t be able to afford and potentially need in the short to medium term.
2 Likes
That almost reads like support for most of our governments who think long term planning is anything beyond the next election, and short term planning is to the next poll. Business and major infrastructure projects require 10-20 year horizons. Therein lies the problem. One can plan ahead or remain behind the curve in a reactive mode.
3 Likes
The cost of fitting to the home in US and NZ and others are still cheaper even with the same requirements we have here to fit Fibre to homes that only ever had copper to the premises. Don’t think that these costs/problems are not seen by other countries. In particular the US has many similar issues to ours including sparse population density areas yet they can do the fitout fair cheaper than we can (about a 50% discount on our cost).
Single residence fitouts in all places in the world can be costly if there are special requirements, but they are few in relation to the bulk of fitouts that occur. Yet with even those the average cost worldwide (in developed countries) is far less than we are being told they are here. Again I stress this is because NBN Co use a density of 3 people per sq kilometre as the basis for their costings.
2 Likes
Just an update regarding TPG.
Coincidentally, (maybe?) 2 days after first posting here I received a phone call from a TPG salesperson telling me that I was a priority customer and that I should sign up to their new NBN plan as soon as possible. It took me a good 10 minutes to explain to the salesperson that I was happy with my current ADSL2+ connection and wouldn’t be connecting to the NBN for the 18 month “grace” period because I would lose speed for the same price they are currently charging me. It took awhile to convince them of my logic.
I asked the salesperson to make a note on my file to not contact me again regarding switching to their NBN. I would contact them when I was ready. they agreed to my request.
I have since received 3 more phone calls from 3 new / different TPG sales people urging me to do the same. Each time I have asked them to note on my file I do not want to be contacted or switched to NBN without my further input. I am getting a bit sick of this unwanted pressure…
Anyone experience the same? Or have any idea why TPG feels the need to apply so much pressure to an existing customer to switch to the NBN so quickly? Why the rush?
1 Like
While NBN prices are governed by a healthy component of CVC costs, it makes me wonder if there are some hidden bonuses for moving people over. Another possibility is that there is some technical effort, however small, to switch a customer over and they don’t want a rush at the 18 months mark. Or TPG is just sloppy and uses untrained undisciplined boiler room sales staff who get commissions on each ‘sale’. (No punts required on which is most likely.)
1 Like
As @PhilT notes/surmises there is a bit of a process in the switch. In the old ADSL switch in the exchange it was a single point for a Tech to switch from one provider to another. Now with FTTN they have nodes which a Tech must visit to complete the switch. Some similar approaches needed with Fixed Wifi (fitting the dish and ports), HFC (fitting the modem and cabling in the house as distinct from the outside hardware), FTTP (fitting the internal cabling and hardware) and FTTC (requires a connection to the DPu in the pit or on post and disconnecting the copper past the pit to exchange), FTTB (requires a switch over in the Telcom cabinet).
This requires a Tech to complete up to two disconnects, one in the exchange, one possibly nearer the premises. It also requires a further effort to complete the connection. This all takes time and may involve contractors/employees from two businesses to complete, NBN are responsible for the hardware to the house but inside fittings are done by contractors to the Telco (RSP).
Getting an NBN appointment that is on time and date can be like drawing teeth with no painkillers. If that appointment doesn’t happen the other contractor cannot complete their job and so they have to reschedule (almost ad infinitum).
If you don’t switch this creates extra work in the “waiting period” as two types of tech have to be supported in the area until cutoff day. Most RSPs hope to achieve the switchover as soon as possible while NBN staff are still allocated to the area (speeds up the switch). Then there is the issue of crosstalk between copper in the pole between ADSL and NBN, meaning NBN connections are unable to run at the best speeds for the area until the ADSL is removed.
So RSPs are keen to get it done and bonuses for sales could be part of that, but they always note it can take 30 days to get the connection to NBN. During this you may have no connection to any service (and if there is a problem it can be months) and that (perhaps extended) period may not have any coverage by CSG depending on your provider.
4 Likes
