Replacing Gas Hot Water and Heating

An interesting view of one retailer.

We can’t judge all hot water systems according to the same guidelines. Whether a hot water system is gas, electric, instantaneous, solar etc. is going to change the expected time for which it will continue to function.

Hot water systems that use tank storage are likely to have a shorter lifespan, since the stored water will corrode the tank over time. On the other hand, an instant hot water system is likely to last much longer, since it employs a very simple mechanism and stores no water over time.

Considering also the high relative cost of an Instantaneous Gas HW service compared to a basic gas with vitreous cylinder. Marketing also emphasises performance of a gas IHW. Would I have purchased the more expensive IHW option if it did not last longer, or was less reliable?

Hopefully Fair Trading can clarify if this is a reasonable expectation per ACL.

P.S.
Noted @phb has raised some key points re local water quality. The Rheem manual should have some details re acceptable water quality in the specifications.

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Thanks Guys. Below is a copy of the Plumber’s invoice.

image

The following link shows a photo of the part, part no. and price. https://1stchoicehotwater.com.au/product/rheem-31-86057-00-water-body-assembly-continuous-flow/ . The price of $327 seems steep for a consumable but then I am somewhat biased here. Whatever, with labour, I have expended a further 32% of the purchase price on the part.

The question regarding water supplies is a good one. The Operations manager of the Riverina Water County Council advises that Wagga Wagga supply is neither aggressive or corrosive. (So the Plumber had it wrong?) Rheem refer to Saturation Index (SI) of the Water supply and the warranty is voided if the water supply is outside this range. The range is -1.0 to + 0.8 . The SI for Lake Albert is -0.25 at 65 degrees centigrade.

Neither my manual nor the Plumber’s service guide reference the part.

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While OT it could be instructive. A few years ago my then 4 year old Siemens dishwasher failed with an error code. I rang a specialist repair that appeared to be related to Bosch but as I learnt was an independent who specialised in European branded appliances.

He clearly knew European brand appliances and advised prior to attending the problem was probably 99% ‘this part’ as they were known to fail. He did a rigorous inspection and verification. I was unlucky (as he put it) needing ‘that expensive part’ and while he had a few variations of ‘that expensive part’ in his van because time is money to a repairman, and having to get a part and return a second time affects his income, my dishwasher also used a part number he had to order.

A point is not to read much into whatever a repairman says because it is not always obvious what their motivation may be, but they want a one visit repair as much as the customer.

Message 1: Keeping stocks inventoried in the van affects income less than having to re-attend, and enhances customer satisfaction through an on the spot repair.

Message 2: Sometimes things just inexplicably and prematurely break.

I could possibly have gone back to Bosch for support for the part if not also the labour, but chose to wear it. Approaching Rheem is at worst your time spent, and at best they may provide support.

As a close, you might check productreview.com.au for the anecdotal reports for both Rheem Australia and Rheem continuous flow HWS. They seem to trend as highly reviewed when they work, but when there is a problem…and not much in between.

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Do you know what your water pressure is?

This can the other thing which can be used to void a warranty. The guide has information on maximum pressures.

We have had experience through a warranty claim on a ceramic kitchen faucet where it was voided over a certain pressure. The plumber checked the pressure before indicating if it would be done under warranty…and fortunately we were just under.

Possibly, or it might what the plumber says to all customers to deflect what caused the real problem…blame something or someone else. It appears that you won’t be able to rely on what the plumber says for fair trade…you will need to try and find out what is the life of the component and if ~4 years is a reasonable life.

Do you still have the faulty part?

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Once again, thanks. I have checked Rheem issues on-line previously. Our water pressure is fine and, as recommended, water saver shower head removed upon installation of HWS.

Replaced part was saved, and as noted in my earlier comments, appears to be in pristine condition.

I accept the comments about stocking of spare parts but living in regional NSW it is more often than not the case that parts have to be ordered, and delays experienced. (Consumables excepted).

I have not mentioned it previously but this is the third Rheem product I have had. Moved into our current house 35 years ago and the house had a Rheem gas storage water heater which worked wonderfully until it died in 2007. Replace with equivalent system which died in 9 years. Half hearted efforts to have Rheem address but no support.

For disbelievers:

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Thats not encouraging. The Stellar 360 is what I had installed soon after I moved into my house in 2001, a valve has had to be replaced but (touch wood) its still going OK although its life was supposed to be about 10 years. If the newer ones are not so reliable, I guess when the time comes I won’t get another :frowning:

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No need to panic.

The product a consumer buys today is likely different in some way from the one made 6-12 months prior. A comparison with a 5-10yo product is likely more uncertain.

All the consumer has to go on for reliability and expected lifetime are consumer reviews and guides such as those available from Choice.

In the fullness of time?
Industry insiders and the manufacturer/importers know which models have high failure rates. Service personnel will have some knowledge of what fails most often. But not necessarily be aware of how many of a model were sold to enable context.

Could consumers ever expect the industry to share this knowledge openly? The industry might argue the performance of yesterday’s product unfairly judges the quality of any current or future product.

The automotive industry has moved on from useless warranties of 12 months or less in the 1950’s to 5 or 7 years. Can consumers cause a similar change and improvement in product warranties for major household goods? (5,10,15 years)

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Our son-in-law told us about when he was working as a Maintenence Superintendent for the Cat dealer in Indonesia…

The local fitters were very good at repairing equipment but did not analyse the cause of recurring problems.

They might replace a fuel pump, and if the problem occured again, they would simply replace it again and again.

He had to instruct them to investigate the cause of the problem instead.

Reply from Fair Trading today. No joy
"I refer to your correspondence dated 4 February 2021 regarding Rheem Australia Pty Ltd.

Your concerns were brought to the attention of Ms Natalie Bullon, Customer Service Support Administrator, Rheem Australia Pty Limited, who advised that after having the matter carefully reviewed by Rheem senior staff, they do not believe that your rights under either the Australian Consumer Law (ACL) or the applicable warranty requires Rheem to reimburse you for the costs incurred to rectify your hot water system.

The above outcome to your complaint concludes the dispute resolution process with NSW Fair Trading."

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About as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

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Now come on, the ashtray could be used for something. That must promote it higher than this outcome.

Time for Civil and Admin Tribunal if @rabbittt thinks that it is warranted, there is a cost to lodge so getting some legal advice beforehand would be useful, there are free legal advice centres in every State and Territory. Fair Trading are more about mediated and conciliatory outcomes with almost no legal teeth.

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Wouldn’t it be great if one got a speeding ticket and the court could refer it to ‘us’ for adjudication as to whether the camera or radar was calibrated and met all statutory requirements for speed measurement, and whether or not we were speeding?

Handballing a complaint to the company for them to determine their liability, and accepting it without further question seems a new low in oversight. Even window dressing is supposed to look good. This? Appalling.

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Thanks PhilT. Just sent this response to Fair Trading.

"Thank you for providing Rheem’s opinion.

What is the opinion of Fair Trading?

I expect a considered reply."

Concurrently, I’m writing to my local member . (Darryl McGuire’s replacement)

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Amazingly I am still at the planning stage but I am coming to the conclusion that a split system will be best when it comes time to replace the ducted gas heating. My only question remains whether to forget trying to retrofit it to the ducts (I am told the gas heating ducting isnt compatible with cooling plus heating PLUS you lose some efficiency through ducts). And then the question is how many splits - I have a small property but the bedrooms are along a long hallway (old Melbourne brick single fronted). Maybe just one system is enough for winter heating (I really dont care about cooling, the house stays cool anyway).

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And here we are, later again…

I’ve done SFA about changing over, except I have switched all my cooking off gas. The stove is still there but I don’t use it. I really need to find that tame plumber to disconnect and get rid of it.

Still have gas hot water, that won’t change in the near future, but with the FL machine, at least the hot water there is created internally in the machine, and not using gas, which it was with the TL.

Costs have actually reduced a bit so I’m not devastated about not being able to move on … and of course this summer has not really needed more than the odd fan.

Must confess, I’m tempted to find a TINY gas heater, just for short times in the early morning (evening not too bad with sun shining directly on the room that needs morning heating)… OTOH I have a plethora of electric heaters, oil variety and radiator style so I guess I’ll use those. The Delonghi Dragon 4 is a neat bit of kit but it does make for massive winter quarter bills.

Hello Community, I am exploring the process of getting rid of my gas ducted heating system in Canberra. I would like to hear from you how you went about doing that in Canberra, including abolishing the gas meter, fees incurred, traps encountered or avoided.

I can’t help you specifically as my time in Canberra was an eon ago and we had kilowatts of resistive heaters in rented accommodation that cost a bomb!

Do you have thought about what to replace it with? At a guess ducted reverse cycle aircon. This is probably the most cost effective solution for a moderately hard climate like Canberra.

Consider what to do with the gas heating ducts. If they are underfloor you could possibly leave them and just cover the vents. You will need a gas-fitter (plumber) to disconnect the gas anyway. The supplier may do it and they may want the meter back. If the vents are in the ceiling and you want to remove them you may be able to strike a deal with the aircon installer to do it while they are in the roof and take it away. You will of course need to organise a final reading of the gas meter too.

I would start with finding out what services and processes the gas supplier provides, and the cost, and get some quotes on the replacement system before making a decision which way to go.

Well I started this thread and look how much time has passed and I still have not managed to switch heating, hot water and cooking from gas to electric. My main problem is the cost of putting in a split system in an old double brick house, and probably having to put multiple ones in as the bedrooms are along a long corridor. I did talk to someone who had put a ducted electric system in their roof with vents around the house. Even the cooktop switch is hard for me as an induction cooktop needs a new circuit and can’t use the oven circuit, which would mean some difficult cabling through brick and probably an upgraded switchboard.

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I’m in the same boat. I really want to switch to all electric but alas, its unlikely to happen. Financial challenges are beyond me. Best I could do is buy a new gas stove which will hopefully be more efficient than the current one which is over 30 years old, and replace the water heater which will have to be storage, again, because too many expensive changes to house wiring and gas pipes. Mine are the wrong size and there are no electrics within cooee so a switch to electric wont happen. OTOH, during a blackout, I have hot water, and a way to cook, even if I have to use torches and candles for light. This is also a part of the reason I haven’t switched.

I’ve discovered the new generation of heat pumps can often be connected to existing ducts (underfloor in my case), and some heat pumps operate for both hot water and heating/cooling.

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