LED lights - reliability & life expectancy

I mean the circuitry within the floor lamp itself. I didn’t know I could argue along the lines you pointed out because the fault developed after the warranty had expired. I’ll know next time.

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I learnt some LEDs do not tolerate heat well. They work fine in cool weather and when well ventilated, but depending on where they are installed (eg open air, in down light cans, in lamps, in a display case, in a range hood, etc) when they reach their thermal operating limits they will start flashing.

If it reaches (eg) 30C in the room, a running LED in its localised environment can be running over 40C, and that is the specified operating limit for some of them. Others I have seen and usually buy are specified to 65C. I have one brand installed during winter in relatively small ceiling down light cans that worked beautifully until summer, and when we had a 35C day the internal roof space got hot and they started flashing after running for a few minutes. When the temps went back to 25C the lights were fine again. I still had the packaging and it clearly stated they were only suitable for what is essentially open air mounting. My bad at the end of the day.

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We have LED lights installed in a new house completed about three years ago. The downlights, which are used every day are fine, and no downlight in the house has failed yet. On the other hand, some conventional globe type LED lamps have failed, and these have been replaced free of charge.

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A couple of things to consider about LEDs I have read online is they are apparently not that close to natural light’s wavelength so some people can find that they don’t fall asleep easily in the night if they are used extensively. As our brains are tuned to natural light diminishing in the evening to prepare the body for sleep.
Also for people who’s mood is affected by the amount of daylight particularly people who may suffer depression apparently the light does not ‘lift’ the mood like natural light will.
Apparently incandescent lighting is closer to natural light.

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@tndkemp You are correct that LED lighting is different, as all types differ from each other and natural light. The best advice I can give anyone thinking about going with LED’s is to do your research properly - remember these are supposed to last you a very long time so don’t cut short your research time lol. You won’t want to put them in only to find you want to change them a month later!
As I stated in an earlier post we are very happy with our LED choice for both houses, the old and the new. We did however do lots of research regarding the product quality and company reputations, but also the legwork in actually going to places where they were installed and on so we could work out if we liked the warm or the cool, high lumens or low, clear or pearl, etc. Try not to go just on what a website or box tells you, trust what your eyes tell you when you see the lights turned on and operating :).

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LED lamps are very reliable and do have a very long life. There are two basic causes for LED’s failing quickly.
The first problem is the driver, this is the small transformer that goes between the lamp and the power. The driver can be integral in the lamp (as in mains voltage retrofit) or in the fitting; or the driver can be separate as in downlights. Halogen downlights also have a transformer to step down from mains voltage to 12-volts BUT they are NOT the same as an LED drivers. Halogen lamp transformers are a very basic and simply step down the voltage to 12-volts, but not true DC. However, LED’s must have a true DC voltage, otherwise they will have a short life and can strobe (i.e. cycle on and off very quickly), which can be very dangerous for anyone with epilepsy. SO, do not buy retrofit LED lamps no matter how cheep they are unless you also have the driver replaced. It is actually better to buy a complete new fitting as the LED lamp and driver are designed to go together.
The second issue affecting the life of LED lamps is heat. The big problem for halogen lamps is that they generate a lot of heat which creates a fire hazard. For an LED lamp the reverse is the problem. Any excessive external heat will shorten the life of the LED. So, if you have an LED downlight which is in a ceiling that is superheated in summer, it will not last long.
NOTE:

  1. LED downlights should NOT be covered with insulation - unless, they have a specific rating allowing them to be “abutted with, or covered by insulation”.
  2. Only use a qualified electrician to wire in lights, or anything electrical for that matter!
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Hi @allandorrington thanks for your information on the LED downlights. I wanted to replace my existing halogen downlights with LED but when I put them in, the LED light when on, then off again, never to return on. I was told that most transformers would accommodate both halogen and LED lights but think this may not be the case. Any thoughts?

Depends on the type of transformer. More info can be found here…Lighting Matters

The other option is to replace the tranformed circuit back to 240 mains and use GU10 bulbs (same horizontal dimensions as the mr16 bulbs. The transformer in GU10 is in the base of the bulb.

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Some LEDs are DC (often sold inclusive with LED drivers), and some are AC-DC (retrofits).

I have 28 retrofit LEDs going into their 2nd or 3rd year. Some were expensive and some were cheap. The cheap ones had a failure rate in the first weeks, refunded with minimal hoops, but after that have been trouble free.

Getting a sparky to replace old transformers with LED drivers is typically $120+ to +++, plus parts. Replacing the halogens with the retrofits is the cost of the LEDs, now around $10 for COB types that are bright and reliable (or refunded if faulty) from ebay merchants.

Okay, @allandorrington @phb and @PhilT - now you have my interest, thanks for your help and information so far - I have MR16 halogen lamps and not sure whether I need a new transformer for each light, or a driver, or whether I need to shop around for a better (or retrofitted) LED light - and whether I can do any of this myself! Confused but appreciative of any information. The whole reason I want to do it is save money on my energy bill so spending a truckload of money to fix the problem will be self-defeating…

Without my comment

You cannot legally do any fixed wiring, hence the attraction of retrofits. The blinking light issue can be cheap LEDs and an incompatible transformer. I’ll not make any comment on the simplicity or legality of changing the transformers out yourself.

FWIW in Victoria the license to do your own work in your own house was $350 p.a. last time I checked (some years), and you had to pass a competence exam, all to replace a 2 wire connection with a like 2 wire connection. I suspect the license cost was designed to be more than a sparky’s call out fee for a reason

Hi “TheBBG”: I am a retired electrical engineer, but I am also a qualified, licensed electrician. To get a license you need to do an apprenticeship and study electrical theory and have a knowledge of AS/NZS3000 wiring rules plus other regulations. It is possible for some trades to get a limited licenses e.g. plumbers can wire up hot water heaters.
The electrical license is not a system to maximise income for electrical contractors (I did not work in this field). The license is there to protect the home owner from illegal and dangerous wiring. In my time I have regularly shuddered at the shear stupidity of DIYers electrical handiwork. They have not only put themselves and their house in danger, they have put loved ones at risk of injury right up to death. Electrical work is not just connecting a couple of wires, there are many other factors to consider to make sure everyone remains safe.
However, if you do have downlights connected via a plug socket you can simply unplug the old light and plug the new one in. BUT make sure the insulation is fitted correctly around the downlight, and that should be indicated on the fitting.

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Hi BBG: I am particularly talking about the 12-V retrofit in this comment, not the mains voltage retrofit which as you point out has the driver and controls integral to the fitting. It is the voltage that is the problem for 12-V LED’s which need a true DC. The transformers for halogen lamps tend to still contain a lot of the AC wave.

That could be the case, but it is suspicious that the cost of a license to do one’s own work (not work professionally!) is so high. Your opinion is obviously different from mine as to why the cost of that license is so high, and that it must be renewed annually at similarly high cost. My view is it does not meet the pub test.

Further, I have found some very dodgy 2nd rate work done by “licensed sparkies”. At least in VIC the anecdotal evidence is they make sure the sparky can pass the test, but once licensed nobody worries about them so long as they pay their annual renewals.

Retrofits are 12V AC-DC to accommodate LED drivers and traditional halogen transformers. Nothing to do with 240V mains. Or am I mistaken?

http://www.ledbenchmark.com/faq/Transformers-Output-and-Compatibility.html

Hi George: All MR16 lamps are 12-V, and as I outlined in my other comment the halogen lamps have a transformer which steps the voltage down from mains voltage to 12-V, but it is not DC. LED’s need a ‘driver’ which steps the voltage down to 12-V and rectifies it so it is DC.
LED’s are just one form of electronics, and just like any other electronics need a clean DC supply to work properly. You would not recharge you mobile phone using a downlight transformer, the LED is just the same.
While on this topic, I have seen LED’s to replace fluorescent tubes, whet I have said about downlight transformers is exactly the same for linear fluorescent lights. They also have starters which are not required for LEDs. So, unless you have a particularly expensive light fitting which would make replacing all the control gear cost effective, it would be better to replace the entire fitting with one that is already LED.
Qualification: retrofit LED’s will work with downlight transformers but they will have a much shortened life and they have a risk of strobing.

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Great. Thanks @allandorrington, so looks like my only option is a good sparky to fix my problem? GP

Yes…and cheapest option may be to replace the existing 240V to 12V transformers with one specifically designed to be compatible with LEDs…namely, can take low loads for operation.

Thanks @phb - thought that would be the case. GP

This is slightly off-topic, but I think that all these LED and halogen downlights are just a stylistic fad, especially when ceilings are crowded with them to provide area lighting. They are best used to provide localised light. Good area lighting is achieved with suspended fittings which throw light in every direction, including the ceiling. We have these in all of our rooms, plus downlights and wall washers for accent. So many dark ceilings these days that make rooms look poorly illuminated. My study/office/junkroom has a twin 36 w fluoro that has not needed a lamp replaced for over 10 years.

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