Many of my friends doctors also. And the hospital. Westmead. Royal North Shore. Individual honest doctors not just mine. The very young and sick, the very sick, the elderly of course they advise to get it.
While some of the compounds which may be used/found in vaccinations may appear ‘scary’, one needs to also understand that these same componds are naturally present in foods or other things we come into contact with/consume.
For example, the anti-vaccination supporters often use formaldehyde as a notable chemical as minute residues may occur in vaccinations after preparation, but one also needs to realise that formaldehyde also occurs naturally in foods.
If one accept the risks of not getting a vaccination, they must also accept the complications and potential long term health consequences (including death) which can result from the disease. If one is comfortable with taking on such risk, then it is up to them. They must also accept the risk of passing any preventable disease onto those vulnerable in our society, due to something outside their control, can’t be vaccinated and therefore protected from the disease.
All I can say is life is short and I personally would want the rest of my life as healthy and unencumbered by injury/disability as possible. This is why I chose to vaccinate. For me and most of the population, the risks of vaccination are far less than the risks associated with getting any of the highly communicable diseases, which can be prevented by the same vaccination.
Could you provide names, as I am sure the AMA would be interested in knowing potential members which go against its own views, as well as that of the scientific and medical science/profession.
It is my understanding that doctors can provide known risks of vaccinations, but should not be recommending one not to be vaccinated…unless of course the vaccination itself poses significant risk to that individual (e.g. allergy to something in the vaccine for example).
If they are recommending healthy individuals not get vaccinated based on non-evidentiary/baseless grounds, this could be used as a basis for complaint to the AMA.
I had my jab at the beginning of the month. It was the over-65 version and I had no ill effects from it. I did get a bit of a cold later that same week but I was in contact with people with sneezy drippy noses. A cold is not the flu. I think some forget that there is a significant distinction between the two.
You will of course supply no evidence to support these additional outrageous allegations - as you have done throughout this thread and others. Trashing the reputations of strangers to try to score points is at best time-wasting, at worst bearing false witness. Please stop and consider your position.
My wife has the influenza vaccine every year with little or no side effects, but this years vaccine knocked her down for around 24 hours, chills, night sweats, nausea, painful to touch her skin amongst other symptoms. It seems this year they gave her the flu to avoid the flu.
I haven’t bothered with the annual influenza vaccination as I am very fortunate that I am rarely sick, I have not had the common cold for probably 15 years and may have had the flu once or twice when I was younger, but as I age I recognise that it would be foolish to believe that it won’t have benefits as ageing causes degrading of my natural immunity.
This article is a distillation of all the anti-vaccination misinformation conveniently in one place. A complex mix of truth, half-truth, exaggeration, cherry picking, assumption, faulty reasoning and plain lies. There isn’t time to go through and knock each one on the head but the worst of this fluff has been debunked many times, try your state department of health, most have a vaccination myths web page. A detailed response here is not warranted as most readers would glaze over and Choosegood has shown that he/she will never engage, so nothing will be achieved.
Consider just one broad aspect of this, the overall effectiveness of vaccination has been demonstrated many times. Small pox is gone, polio is nearly gone, rubella, haemophilus and many ‘childhood diseases’ are greatly reduced. Some of these diseases do return from time to time. You might think this shows vaccines don’t work, it isn’t that. They return for one simple reason - people get slack and/or start to believe the anti-vaccs propaganda and don’t have their children jabbed. Whenever there is a new outbreak it can be traced to that cause, it has happened many times. Choosegood it seems wants us to go down that pathway.
There is solid evidence that vaccination has saved many thousands of lives. The matter has been studied to death. When there are some reliable studies that show that getting rid of harmful electromagnetic effects by walking barefoot on the ground or having a chiropractor crack your back will prevent the flu (or do anything useful at all) I will pay close attention. This kind of advice may not be harmful in itself (except to your wallet) but if it makes people stop getting vaccinated then it is.
And so after a long and torturous trip we return to where we started from, which was the Choice campaign to prevent unproven medicine being practised by quacks on the unwary. This article is great case study and I commend it to you.
The Truth about Cancer website is really the UNtruth about cancer.. The ‘experts’ on this website are not leaders in the research of the medical fields they seem to have opinions of, and generally are part of the multibillion dollar vitamin supplement industry. Their views or opinions support their business interests.
Notwithstanding this, in relation to their relevations about the flu vaccination, this website has factual information (not conspiracies) about the ingredients of vaccinations and risks. It also contains references to scientific/medical research papers which support its claims, rather than posts of so called experts on the same website making the claims.
A quick note to those following this thread - whether you are considering the flu vaccine, other vaccines or health in general a reminder to please do so in conjunction with a legally qualified medical practitioner .
However there are some ‘legally qualified’ practitioners who have wandered, just as in there are some excellent GP’s, some wanting, and some in-between.
Most do a very good job, but just ‘legally qualified’ is only the first part of a proper litmus test.
Counterpoint example in dentistry, many dentists recommend electric toothbrushes (dominated by Oral-B recommendations) while a few advise to use good old manual brushing. Lots of dentists have free give-aways on their counters (usually Colgate and Oral-B products) so they may or may not be swayed by ‘company sponsored research’, or they may be following best practices and be right on. Both sides are ‘legally qualified’.
[quote=“matsp003, post:5, topic:15484”]
I’ve never had a flu shot (no real intention too until much later in life etc), just let my immune system deal for the most part… [/quote]
Ever visit a sick friend or relative in hospital? You can be spreading the 'flu without even knowing you’re infected - and it is deadly to some people. The other visitor who walked past you, heading to intensive care? They pick up the virus from you, and a few days later spread it to their very sick loved one - you’d feel guilty, if only you knew. Then of course there are pregnant women and young babies who don’t deal very well with serious infections.
If it’s a couple of days it is not influenza. I had the 'flu a couple of years ago when I failed to get vaccinated through a range of circumstances. It will put you in bed for about two weeks (although if you take some of the post-infection medication that’s around you can reduce this to 14 days). Real influenza is not fun!
Most people will have no reaction to the 'flu shot, except sometimes a little muscle pain.
How do you ‘get healthy’?
How do you raise your immunity (other than with the vaccine)?
What is “the right thing to get over…” influenza, other than keeping your fluids up and resting?
Influenza is a viral infection - antibiotics are useless against it.
You immune system will learn how to deal with the strain of 'flu you have - but it is a constantly evolving virus, so that generally won’t be much use ‘next time’.
You’re seeing the wrong doctor. What are their qualifications, by the way - are you seeing someone with recognised medical qualifications?
Total bullshit! Do you have a source for this claim?
Names please. All doctors are registered, and if they are making statements that are contrary to medical evidence then they are subject to sanction and potential deregistration.
“Influenza is a common cause of pneumonia, especially among younger children, the elderly, pregnant women, or those with certain chronic health conditions or who live in a nursing home. Most cases of flu never lead to pneumonia, but those that do tend to be more severe and deadly. In fact, flu and pneumonia were the eighth leading cause of death in the United States in 2015.”
“Primary influenza pneumonia has a high mortality rate during pandemics, not only in immunocompromised individuals and patients with underlying comorbid conditions, but also in young healthy adults. Clinicians should maintain a high index of suspicion for this diagnosis in patients presenting with influenza-like symptoms that progress quickly (2 to 5 days) to respiratory distress and extensive pulmonary involvement.”
“Community-acquired pneumonia (CAP) often follows influenza infection. The hypothesized synergistic interaction resulting from coinfection with influenza and agents of CAP is thought to be a major factor in the severity of the 1918 influenza A pandemic (1, 2). Today, up to 20% of persons who have CAP show evidence of recent exposure to the influenza virus (3), and pneumonia is a leading indicator of influenza severity (4). Although Staphylococcus aureus is a relatively uncommon cause of CAP after influenza infection, methicillin-resistant S. aureus has been considered an important pathogen in deaths of coinfected pediatric patients. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on the 2004–2007 influenza seasons showed that methicillin-resistant S. aureus was present in 60% of the 20 pediatric patients who died from S. aureus coinfection, with the highest rate during the 2006–2007 season (5), which suggests that the problem of antibiotic resistance among children with CAP in this age group is growing.”
Some of the References noted in the last quoted article
1.McCullers JA, English BK.
Improving therapeutic strategies for secondary bacterial pneumonia following influenza,
Future Microbiol , 2008, vol. 3 4(pg. 397-404) Google ScholarCrossRefPubMed
2.Morens DM , Taubenberger JK , Fauci AS.
Predominant role of bacterial pneumonia as a cause of death in pandemic influenza: implications for pandemic influenza preparedness
, J Infect Dis , 2008, vol. 198 7(pg. 962-970) Google Scholar CrossRefPubMed
3.Ruiz M, Ewig S, Marcos MA, et al.
Etiology of community-acquired pneumonia: impact of age, comorbidity, and severity,
Am J Respir Crit Care Med , 1999, vol. 160 2(pg. 397-405) Google ScholarCrossRefPubMed
4 McCullers JA.
Insights into the interaction between influenza virus and Pneumococcus,
Clin Microbiol Rev , 2006, vol. 19 3(pg. 571-582) Google ScholarCrossRefPubMed
But you are certainly right about not passing on the Flu to unprotected people is the best protection to avoid this and other bad consequences. People whether they believe it or not, should also understand they may be infected and may not have symptoms and THEY WILL pass the infection on. Which means as many people as possible should be getting vaccinated, using protection when coughing, sneezing, talking (wearing a mask is an example or using a hanky to cough or sneeze into), and avoiding touching people or the things they use without taking precautions (washing hands befor and after is an example). If people contract the Flu or suspect they may have it, they should stay away from other people as much as possible, an example would be to stay at home. If people have the flu or flu like symptoms they should wear a mask if they must go out and reduce that time out to the bare minimum.
For those who think because they don’t feel ill that they aren’t passing on an infection and think they don’t need to get vaccinated please read about Typhoid Mary (Mary Mallon). This isn’t about Flu but it is about how people who are infected can be without symptoms but can still spread disease.
Finally, those who don’t get vaccinated when they could, may one day be relying on someone else to be getting vaccinated to stop themselves, a family member and or friends, because of age or illness, from being infected. It could be a situation of reaping later what they sow now.
That’s not 'flu developing into a bacterial infection, and as your first source later states “Most cases of flu (sic) never lead to pneumonia…”.
Your second source declares that “Community-acquired pneumonia (CAP) often follows influenza infection”. Again, the pneumonia is not developing 'from the ‘flu’.
My concern here is in the overuse of antibiotics, and their consequent increasing uselessness. There are people who will demand antibiotics when their condition will not benefit from their use - and this is becoming just as bad as not getting vaccinated when you are capable of doing so and thus protecting your community.
Typhoid Mary is a good example of someone who was responsible for several deaths but always denied her culpability. She was banned from working in kitchens, but continued to do so and thus continued to spread disease.
In the case of influenza, it can take up to four days after infection before you notice that you have been - and during that period everyone you meet can be infected by you (then everyone they meet, etc.). Best to be vaccinated.
I took Choosegood’s meaning to be that getting the flu often leads to a bacterial infection ie Bacterial pneumonia but I understand now why you have a different take/interpretation of their post. My apologies for not considering that way.
In regard to my interpretation as noted in my post I said Flu is more likely to lead to a secondary infection. Some of the papers do relate the “interaction/cause” ie one enables/enhances the other. They also term the infection as Primary Influenza Pneumonia in the Government NCBI paper. As regards it’s incidence the AJE one does not say it’s incidence is low as per their statement “Community-acquired pneumonia (CAP) often follows influenza infection”.
I noted the sources to show some proof that the infections were co-related. Further to that from the 4th reference in the AJE article by JA McCullers “There is ample evidence to support the historical view that influenza virus alters the lungs in a way that predisposes to adherence, invasion, and induction of disease by pneumococcus. Access to receptors is a key factor and may be facilitated by the virus through epithelial damage, by exposure or up-regulation of receptors, or by provoking the epithelial regeneration response to cytotoxic damage. More recent data indicate that alteration of the immune response by diminishing the ability of the host to clear pneumococcus or by amplification of the inflammatory cascade is another key factor”.
I also agree with your statement many rush to obtain Antibiotics for a Viral infection, which is of absolutely no use for viral infections and it allows Bacteria to also gain resistance to the drug so that it becomes useless in the future treatment of those bacterial infections. A vaccination could avert many bad outcomes. Some people may get very sick from the many vaccines out there for the many diseases but the number of those is very very small and in comparison to the number who will have very bad outcomes from the diseases it is still a very very small number. I struggle to understand the anti-vaxers stance. I always hope their stance is out of ignorance or lack of understanding but I must admit to feeling some do it out of sheer uncaring about others.
I did note and appreciate your references to reality-based sources, but yes - my concern was that correlation not be assumed as causation.
It is interesting (and concerning) that the sources suggest there may be some causal link - at least in terms of influenza opening pathways via which other infections can then gain a foothold (er, bacterial claw-hold?).