CHOICE membership

Getting a flu shot will make me sick?


#27

I get the jab every year and this is the first year I’ve picked up the flu. The symptoms are markedly less severe. I haven’t even bothered to take any drugs. Totally worth it.


#28

My wife has the influenza vaccine every year with little or no side effects, but this years vaccine knocked her down for around 24 hours, chills, night sweats, nausea, painful to touch her skin amongst other symptoms. It seems this year they gave her the flu to avoid the flu.

I haven’t bothered with the annual influenza vaccination as I am very fortunate that I am rarely sick, I have not had the common cold for probably 15 years and may have had the flu once or twice when I was younger, but as I age I recognise that it would be foolish to believe that it won’t have benefits as ageing causes degrading of my natural immunity.


#29

#30

This article is a distillation of all the anti-vaccination misinformation conveniently in one place. A complex mix of truth, half-truth, exaggeration, cherry picking, assumption, faulty reasoning and plain lies. There isn’t time to go through and knock each one on the head but the worst of this fluff has been debunked many times, try your state department of health, most have a vaccination myths web page. A detailed response here is not warranted as most readers would glaze over and Choosegood has shown that he/she will never engage, so nothing will be achieved.

Consider just one broad aspect of this, the overall effectiveness of vaccination has been demonstrated many times. Small pox is gone, polio is nearly gone, rubella, haemophilus and many ‘childhood diseases’ are greatly reduced. Some of these diseases do return from time to time. You might think this shows vaccines don’t work, it isn’t that. They return for one simple reason - people get slack and/or start to believe the anti-vaccs propaganda and don’t have their children jabbed. Whenever there is a new outbreak it can be traced to that cause, it has happened many times. Choosegood it seems wants us to go down that pathway.

There is solid evidence that vaccination has saved many thousands of lives. The matter has been studied to death. When there are some reliable studies that show that getting rid of harmful electromagnetic effects by walking barefoot on the ground or having a chiropractor crack your back will prevent the flu (or do anything useful at all) I will pay close attention. This kind of advice may not be harmful in itself (except to your wallet) but if it makes people stop getting vaccinated then it is.

And so after a long and torturous trip we return to where we started from, which was the Choice campaign to prevent unproven medicine being practised by quacks on the unwary. This article is great case study and I commend it to you.


#31

The Truth about Cancer website is really the UNtruth about cancer.. The ‘experts’ on this website are not leaders in the research of the medical fields they seem to have opinions of, and generally are part of the multibillion dollar vitamin supplement industry. Their views or opinions support their business interests.

Notwithstanding this, in relation to their relevations about the flu vaccination, this website has factual information (not conspiracies) about the ingredients of vaccinations and risks. It also contains references to scientific/medical research papers which support its claims, rather than posts of so called experts on the same website making the claims.


#32

A quick note to those following this thread - whether you are considering the flu vaccine, other vaccines or health in general a reminder to please do so in conjunction with a legally qualified medical practitioner :man_health_worker: :woman_health_worker:.


#33

However there are some ‘legally qualified’ practitioners who have wandered, just as in there are some excellent GP’s, some wanting, and some in-between.

Most do a very good job, but just ‘legally qualified’ is only the first part of a proper litmus test.

Counterpoint example in dentistry, many dentists recommend electric toothbrushes (dominated by Oral-B recommendations) while a few advise to use good old manual brushing. Lots of dentists have free give-aways on their counters (usually Colgate and Oral-B products) so they may or may not be swayed by ‘company sponsored research’, or they may be following best practices and be right on. Both sides are ‘legally qualified’.


#34

I knew this would attract a comment :slight_smile: . I decided the phrasing from the Comcare.gov site would be appropriate, but I appreciate the nuance you have added.


#35

For example: http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ln-doctor-license-threat-20180524-story.html

In other news, my cat hissed at me the other day, and instantly my gout was cured …

18 days on and no ill effects …


#36

[quote=“matsp003, post:5, topic:15484”]
I’ve never had a flu shot (no real intention too until much later in life etc), just let my immune system deal for the most part… [/quote]

Ever visit a sick friend or relative in hospital? You can be spreading the 'flu without even knowing you’re infected - and it is deadly to some people. The other visitor who walked past you, heading to intensive care? They pick up the virus from you, and a few days later spread it to their very sick loved one - you’d feel guilty, if only you knew. Then of course there are pregnant women and young babies who don’t deal very well with serious infections.

If it’s a couple of days it is not influenza. I had the 'flu a couple of years ago when I failed to get vaccinated through a range of circumstances. It will put you in bed for about two weeks (although if you take some of the post-infection medication that’s around you can reduce this to 14 days). Real influenza is not fun!

Most people will have no reaction to the 'flu shot, except sometimes a little muscle pain.

  1. How do you ‘get healthy’?
  2. How do you raise your immunity (other than with the vaccine)?
  3. What is “the right thing to get over…” influenza, other than keeping your fluids up and resting?
  4. Influenza is a viral infection - antibiotics are useless against it.
  5. You immune system will learn how to deal with the strain of 'flu you have - but it is a constantly evolving virus, so that generally won’t be much use ‘next time’.

You’re seeing the wrong doctor. What are their qualifications, by the way - are you seeing someone with recognised medical qualifications?

Total bullshit! Do you have a source for this claim?

Names please. All doctors are registered, and if they are making statements that are contrary to medical evidence then they are subject to sanction and potential deregistration.


#37

Actually because the immune system is over taxed fighting the Flu virus the person is much more likely to contract a secondary Bacterial infection that becomes pneumonia.

From the US Lung Association comes this (http://www.lung.org/lung-health-and-diseases/lung-disease-lookup/pneumonia/what-is-the-connection.html)

“Influenza is a common cause of pneumonia, especially among younger children, the elderly, pregnant women, or those with certain chronic health conditions or who live in a nursing home. Most cases of flu never lead to pneumonia, but those that do tend to be more severe and deadly. In fact, flu and pneumonia were the eighth leading cause of death in the United States in 2015.”

From the US National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) from a Clinical review of Primary influenza viral pneumonia about the 2009 pandemic H1N1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811908/):

“Primary influenza pneumonia has a high mortality rate during pandemics, not only in immunocompromised individuals and patients with underlying comorbid conditions, but also in young healthy adults. Clinicians should maintain a high index of suspicion for this diagnosis in patients presenting with influenza-like symptoms that progress quickly (2 to 5 days) to respiratory distress and extensive pulmonary involvement.”

From the American Journal of Epidemiology (https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/175/5/363/176120):

“Community-acquired pneumonia (CAP) often follows influenza infection. The hypothesized synergistic interaction resulting from coinfection with influenza and agents of CAP is thought to be a major factor in the severity of the 1918 influenza A pandemic (1, 2). Today, up to 20% of persons who have CAP show evidence of recent exposure to the influenza virus (3), and pneumonia is a leading indicator of influenza severity (4). Although Staphylococcus aureus is a relatively uncommon cause of CAP after influenza infection, methicillin-resistant S. aureus has been considered an important pathogen in deaths of coinfected pediatric patients. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on the 2004–2007 influenza seasons showed that methicillin-resistant S. aureus was present in 60% of the 20 pediatric patients who died from S. aureus coinfection, with the highest rate during the 2006–2007 season (5), which suggests that the problem of antibiotic resistance among children with CAP in this age group is growing.”

Some of the References noted in the last quoted article
1.McCullers JA, English BK.
Improving therapeutic strategies for secondary bacterial pneumonia following influenza,
Future Microbiol , 2008, vol. 3 4(pg. 397-404)
Google Scholar CrossRef PubMed

2.Morens DM , Taubenberger JK , Fauci AS.
Predominant role of bacterial pneumonia as a cause of death in pandemic influenza: implications for pandemic influenza preparedness
, J Infect Dis , 2008, vol. 198 7(pg. 962-970)
Google Scholar CrossRef PubMed

3.Ruiz M, Ewig S, Marcos MA, et al.
Etiology of community-acquired pneumonia: impact of age, comorbidity, and severity,
Am J Respir Crit Care Med , 1999, vol. 160 2(pg. 397-405)
Google Scholar CrossRef PubMed

4 McCullers JA.
Insights into the interaction between influenza virus and Pneumococcus,
Clin Microbiol Rev , 2006, vol. 19 3(pg. 571-582)
Google Scholar CrossRef PubMed

But you are certainly right about not passing on the Flu to unprotected people is the best protection to avoid this and other bad consequences. People whether they believe it or not, should also understand they may be infected and may not have symptoms and THEY WILL pass the infection on. Which means as many people as possible should be getting vaccinated, using protection when coughing, sneezing, talking (wearing a mask is an example or using a hanky to cough or sneeze into), and avoiding touching people or the things they use without taking precautions (washing hands befor and after is an example). If people contract the Flu or suspect they may have it, they should stay away from other people as much as possible, an example would be to stay at home. If people have the flu or flu like symptoms they should wear a mask if they must go out and reduce that time out to the bare minimum.

For those who think because they don’t feel ill that they aren’t passing on an infection and think they don’t need to get vaccinated please read about Typhoid Mary (Mary Mallon). This isn’t about Flu but it is about how people who are infected can be without symptoms but can still spread disease.

Finally, those who don’t get vaccinated when they could, may one day be relying on someone else to be getting vaccinated to stop themselves, a family member and or friends, because of age or illness, from being infected. It could be a situation of reaping later what they sow now.


#38

That’s not 'flu developing into a bacterial infection, and as your first source later states “Most cases of flu (sic) never lead to pneumonia…”.

Your second source declares that “Community-acquired pneumonia (CAP) often follows influenza infection”. Again, the pneumonia is not developing 'from the ‘flu’.

My concern here is in the overuse of antibiotics, and their consequent increasing uselessness. There are people who will demand antibiotics when their condition will not benefit from their use - and this is becoming just as bad as not getting vaccinated when you are capable of doing so and thus protecting your community.

Typhoid Mary is a good example of someone who was responsible for several deaths but always denied her culpability. She was banned from working in kitchens, but continued to do so and thus continued to spread disease.

In the case of influenza, it can take up to four days after infection before you notice that you have been - and during that period everyone you meet can be infected by you (then everyone they meet, etc.). Best to be vaccinated.


#39

I took Choosegood’s meaning to be that getting the flu often leads to a bacterial infection ie Bacterial pneumonia but I understand now why you have a different take/interpretation of their post. My apologies for not considering that way.

In regard to my interpretation as noted in my post I said Flu is more likely to lead to a secondary infection. Some of the papers do relate the “interaction/cause” ie one enables/enhances the other. They also term the infection as Primary Influenza Pneumonia in the Government NCBI paper. As regards it’s incidence the AJE one does not say it’s incidence is low as per their statement “Community-acquired pneumonia (CAP) often follows influenza infection”.

I noted the sources to show some proof that the infections were co-related. Further to that from the 4th reference in the AJE article by JA McCullers “There is ample evidence to support the historical view that influenza virus alters the lungs in a way that predisposes to adherence, invasion, and induction of disease by pneumococcus. Access to receptors is a key factor and may be facilitated by the virus through epithelial damage, by exposure or up-regulation of receptors, or by provoking the epithelial regeneration response to cytotoxic damage. More recent data indicate that alteration of the immune response by diminishing the ability of the host to clear pneumococcus or by amplification of the inflammatory cascade is another key factor”.

I also agree with your statement many rush to obtain Antibiotics for a Viral infection, which is of absolutely no use for viral infections and it allows Bacteria to also gain resistance to the drug so that it becomes useless in the future treatment of those bacterial infections. A vaccination could avert many bad outcomes. Some people may get very sick from the many vaccines out there for the many diseases but the number of those is very very small and in comparison to the number who will have very bad outcomes from the diseases it is still a very very small number. I struggle to understand the anti-vaxers stance. I always hope their stance is out of ignorance or lack of understanding but I must admit to feeling some do it out of sheer uncaring about others.


#40

I did note and appreciate your references to reality-based sources, but yes - my concern was that correlation not be assumed as causation.

It is interesting (and concerning) that the sources suggest there may be some causal link - at least in terms of influenza opening pathways via which other infections can then gain a foothold (er, bacterial claw-hold?).


#41

Antibiotics are useless against viruses such as the flu viruses.

Antibiotics are very useful against bacterial infections.


#42

I can name several substances that may be found in Vaccines that in large doses can cause illness or death, among them are Formaldehyde,and Hydrochloric Acid (HCl). These are certainly bad if ingested in sufficient quantities. But they are also found naturally in the human body as part of body processes eg breakdown of food in the stomach by acid (Gastric Acid contains HCl). Formaldehyde is created and used within certain metabolic processes.

Others things found in vaccines include Aluminium salts as adjuvants, that is they are used in strengthening and lengthening the immune response to the vaccine. Aluminium salts appear to slow down the release of the active ingredient from the vaccine once it is injected, and stimulate the immune system to respond to the vaccine. They also absorb protein well, and stop the proteins in the vaccine sticking to the walls of a container during storage.

Antibiotics used to stop Bacteria growing in the vaccine production process. Some of these are neomycin, streptomycin, polymyxin b., gentamicin and kanamycin. No penicillin or similar commonly allergy reaction causing ones are used. If someone is allergic to any of the ones used however, they should discuss the vaccines with their doctors to ensure no ill effects. The amounts present in prepared vaccines are very small or undetectable.

Egg Albumin as it is used as a growing medium for some vaccines.

Sodium Hydroxide is also used in the production of vaccines in it’s role as a acidity modifier to create the correct pH balance, in doing so it is consumed leaving water & Sodium Chloride as a byproduct ie salt. None is left as Sodium Hydroxide. The same result happens for Hydrochloric Acid.

Thiomersal (an ethylmercury based preservative) though it is not like methylmercury compounds that accumulate in the body… It is in very small amounts in a vaccine. Thiomersal is not used in Australia but is included here in this list as people may receive vaccinations elsewhere in the World.

Vaccines can also contain gelatine, Human Serum Albumin (a stabiliser), Recombinant human serum albumin (a stabiliser) Sorbitol (which the body produces anyway), Manniitol (similar to Sorbitol), Sucrose, Lactose, Glycerol and a large number of other compounds.

But of all these products the amounts found in vaccines are so small as to be harmless or have no effect to our bodies. We either break them down through natural processes, they are used by the body as part of it’s metabolic pathways as they already occur in our bodies, or we excrete them via our normal elimination processes. None are in quantities that could be or are Toxic but some people could be very allergic to some eg eggs.

To read more on what can be included or used in vaccine production worldwide I include some easy to read sources:

http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-ingredients

https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/vaccine_ingredients/

https://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm187810.htm

For a list of all the various components used in Vaccine production in Australia is the following:

http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook10-home~handbook10-tools~handbook10-appendices~handbook10-appendix3

I tried to get some sort of understanding about Toxic Load but what I found was that they consider everything modern has some burden it puts on the functioning of the human body, ie the chemicals in everything burden the body and need to be eliminated for the body to function correctly.

I think they believe that somehow they lived healthier and longer lives before modern times and they need to return to those simpler things to be healthier and live longer. Unfortunately this is not really true, before modern medicine populations had vastly higher child mortality rates caused by diseases we now vaccinate against, most adults and children had very poor life spans dying because of infections that could not be controlled, from the results of poor diets, poor hygiene, lack of primary healthcare, damage from previous illnesses eg Childhood Scarlet Fever infections, Typhoid, Cholera, Malaria, Dysentery, Cancer of myriad types, Sexually Transmitted diseases, measles, mumps, congenital/genetic disorders eg Haemophilia and the list goes on.

While I agree that eating good quality food in appropriate portions, having good social activity, exercise, mental relaxation, a belief system (whatever that may be including science), and drinking good clean water are important for our good health, it is also important to understand these do not in themselves, without good medical and dental health interventions & preventative measures, lead to long and healthy lives for ourselves and our children.


#43

Oxidane being another substance responsible for huge numbers of deaths, yet I wash in it daily …

Context is everything … or nothing … :slight_smile:


#44

Agree.

Unfortunately the lesser informed look at things like Formaldehyde,and Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) and think these things sound scary.

For those who are interested and as @grahroll outlined, the human body produces significant amounts of hydrochloric acid naturally. Hydrochloric acid is produced in the stomach and role is principally to assist with the digestion of foods (commonly referred to as gastric acid) and also as a disinfectant. A disinfectant being to kill those pathogens which can’t survive in a acid environment. At high concentrations, it can cause burning of sensitive body parts. Also if vapour is inhaled or it is swallowed, it can cause damage to the lungs, oesophagus/trachea, pharynx, throat and oral cavity.

What is also interesting, I am yet to find a reliable source that indicates that hydrochloric acid is specifically added to vaccinations. Unfortunately these sort of claims are common with those which don’t believe in the merit or efficacy of vaccination programs.

An explanation of formaldehyde was provided in this post.


#45

You are correct, it is added in the process of creating the vaccine to balance the pH profile of the culture to ensure the proper growth of the active product used to make the vaccine and in the manufacture of the end product to produce the stable pH environment to maintain the efficacy of the vaccine. It is consumed by reaction in these processes and is not found in or added to the final vaccine product eg Vial, pre-filled needle, or oral suspension.


#46