Electric and Alternative Vehicle Fuels

It looks as if that is the future trends the grid becomes even more of an essential utility like the main roads and national highways and NBN?

Something no one would ever think of selling into private ownership where there is no opportunity for direct competition.

Oops, wait, it is already happening? :flushed:

Not connecting is a choice, but perhaps not a competitive option.
Perhaps in delivering energy by moving your car around, you can bypass the grid as suggested. Power for sale a bit like yesterday when the icemen competed in your street to deliver block ice for the ice box?

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Already being envisaged by some:

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I must be missing something. Where did the article on P2P electricity trading mention the role of the network owner? Doesn’t all this depend on them cooperating? Won’t they want a commission?

There was mention of a microgrid. Is that a private local network? What if you need to go further?

Microgrids are small scale networks (most would be private) that join a few users together. If you want to go further you can have both a microgrid and a connection to the larger mainstream network. It is just a matter of setting up the connections so that both or individual circuits are supplied at any one time.

As the article explains p2p can also be set up. It is being trialled by the larger players eg AGL and Origin but they would want to remain involved as they want to profit from the use of power. It doesn’t always need their involvement but if you wanted national sharing then there is a need for a cooperation between State networks at least and any privately owned networks.

Not all trading needs to be done by the larger network eg if you have excess energy stored in your car battery you could hook into a household system to supply power or charge their battery system as long as they have the ability to draw from the source. From a BBC article:

"But the carmaker Nissan is hoping to go a step further.

At the Nissan Technology Centre in Cranfield, Bedfordshire, a number of the company’s electric Leaf models are lined up alongside a bank of chargers. But these cars aren’t just drawing energy from the grid; they’re also putting it back.

The system is called Vehicle to Grid, or V2G. The Japanese company is developing it in partnership with the Italian power firm Enel and is already operating a small trial hub in Denmark.

Electric cars are, in effect, energy storage devices, and because they spend much of their time parked up not doing anything they can help smooth out the peaks and troughs in energy demand.

“Basically, we can consider the car as a battery with wheels,” says Maria Laura Corallini, the engineer in charge of the V2G project.

“You can use the energy storage capability in the battery to provide specific services back to the grid.”

The system uses software to regulate the charging level of multiple vehicles.

When the grid needs extra power, it can draw very small amounts from each individual vehicle. When energy is abundant, it can top them up again. Users will get paid for the electricity they provide.

If thousands of cars are connected together, then the amount of energy given back to the grid can be substantial, and it can be varied on a second-by-second basis.

Ms Corallini calls it “a virtual power station”.

It is a complicated system, and Nissan has been testing it on a small scale at Cranfield for more than a year.

Initially the plan is to sell it to businesses that operate large fleets, although the company says it will also introduce a residential version. Other organisations are also experimenting with the technology.

Not everyone agrees that V2G makes commercial sense, however. The chief technical officer of Tesla, JB Straubel, for example, has suggested in the past that he doesn’t see it becoming a viable solution, largely due to its cost and complexity.

Some experts have suggested it could accelerate battery degradation, although Ms Corallini insists the reverse is true, because the car is maintained in an optimum state of charge.

A recent study by researchers at Warwick University came to a similar conclusion, suggesting V2G technology could increase battery life by up to 10%."

Some other articles on selling or using excess or stored power:

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Thank you for your explanation but I still don’t know how network charges would affect the cost effectiveness or ultimate usefulness of P2P electricity transfer. There are so many ‘good ideas’ that don’t come with costing.

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It would depend on implementation eg stringing a wire between houses to share 12 or 24 v power supply or if it needed to be 240 v and thus a truly licenced installation. If charging stations were built with the ability to also accept power as well as deliver then the cost could be very small to add power to a network either local or national. There is always a cost but some would be very small in comparison to others. Even nationally if the cost was shared between all consuming entities the cost per user could be quite low in comparison to the cost of the actual power consumed.

A version of p2p sometimes operates in small communities ie someone has a generator, the rest of the community run power leads to the generator and pay an amount for the fuel and maintenance. This shares the cost but all benefit from the power supplied. I have witnessed this in operation. While it isn’t what a lot of us would accept, when it is a choice of some lights and a radio or living by firelight they often choose the former rather than the later, the benefit outweighs the cost.

Are there other types of networks that could be used as examples of cost and benefit, well at least in computer terms you could look at LAN, WAN, and the internet as a whole. They all deliver benefits, they all cost, but for the most part we would say it is mostly to our benefit. I think that the maintenance cost of a national power p2p network would keep the network infrastructure working but the benefit of shared power and not having to rely on a single or very few sources of that power could have vast benefits for our populace. Looking at 2013 power bills for Qld the cost of transmission and distribution are about 52% of the bill, for Victoria it is about 30%, NSW about 60% from https://www.energynetworks.com.au/sites/default/files/electricity-prices-and-network-costs_2.pdf

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Another article regarding the rollout of electric vehicle fast charging networks across Australia.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/new-plan-to-expand-australias-ev-charging-network/ar-AADKYMH?ocid=spartandhp

Has anyone actually seen or heard what the charging costs actually are?

I suppose if the recharging sites are located away from existing food and drink retailers, it may provide an opportunity for the operators to also provide refreshments for customers whilst they recharge at airport style rip-off pricing.

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You could estimate most of the cost if using conventional electricity supplies eg $0.28 per kW X by car battery capacity eg 80 kW + daily supply charge eg $1.15 = $23.55 (using example figures) The premium Tesla models, not the cheaper mass consumer models have a capacity of 100 kWh with a range of around 400 - 500 Km so about $30 for a ‘full tank’. That compares pretty well with conventional fossil fuels. If they use renewable energy then the costing shifts sharply downwards and if off peak power is used it is a more moderate saving than renewables. Then add profit margins.

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Agree wholeheartedly.
Each day we continue to burn things is another day of putting pollution into the air, land and water.
Some places have started transition. Transition needs to increase in size and pace in order to replace jobs using non polluting energy sources.

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An article regarding scientists developingl a new fuel cell with double the output of existing units.

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An interesting article regarding the effect of electric vehicles in relation to road funding.

Obviously some changes will have to be made, presumably by charging a tax based on mileage as suggested or perhaps a surcharge on EV annual registration.

Doing nothing is not an option.

What is interesting is Japan is still pushing ahead with its Hydrogen Energy Roadmap. which it plans to pioneer the worlds first hydrogen society.

One of the targets they have is to improve a efficiency of low carbon hydrogen production such that by 2030, the cost of per unit of hydrogen production is equivalent to 17 yen/kWh (about $0.22/kWh). If they achieve such a target, it would have enormous ramifications for future vehicle technologies as the cost per unit of hydrogen would be significantly less than the cost of electricity to supply a EV battery vehicle.

Japan is also pushing ahead, along with many other vehicle manufacturers, with research into fuel cell technologies and the prospective hydrogen future.

Australia has an opportunity to satisfy Japan and other countries demand for hydrogen through electrolysis with solar plants and wind farms, taking excess overcapacity in these generators (which is required to meet fluctuating nature of renewable generation) to produce zero carbon hydrogen.

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More on the ins-and-outs of charging:

One up for Tesla, or is this a special case?

_For example, Finnish Tesla taxi driver Ari Nyyssönen has racked up an impressive 400,000 kilometres in his – and still has 93 per cent of his initial battery capacity.

For lithium battery technology applied to taxi use, age in calendar time is unlikely to be a significant factor. It is still a large number of cycles for the battery to reach the 400,000km mark. Perhaps approaching 1,000 equivalent full charge discharge cycles assuming an average range of 400km.

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Musk says Tesla will soon have a battery that lasts a million miles (1,600,000 kilometres, or thereabouts).

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Loved the video clip at the bottom of the article regarding Harley Davidson electiic motorcycles, but I seriously doubt any of the OMCG members will be riding them anytime soon.

An article regarding the Barnawartha biodiesel plant being restarted.

Apparently the previous operator went into administration after the Federal Government reneged on their stated policy on excise.

What sort of idiots would want to tax biodiesel at the same rate as pertroeum based diesel whilst leaving electric vehicles free from excise?

image

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More precisely the Federal Government did not reneg.

The Government simply changed at the 2013 election, and implemented a different policy. Apparently producing biofuel from waste is not ‘Direct Action’ to some?

The overall carbon footprint of this example may be of limited benefit in reducing Australia’s GHG emissions. The carbon contained in the source material is likely going back to the atmosphere irrespective of how it is used.

As an important alternative, in the short term, any capability that can produce usable petrochemical fuels domestically is a step to reduce reliance on imports. It has some strategic value if not economic benefits.

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Burning carbon based fuels is not the best answer as you point out. But cycling it is better than using virgin sources. So if it is just circular (or nearly so) no extra carbon is being placed in the atmosphere at the moment which allows us to develop alternatives without currently increasing the amount of virgin fossil fuels we consume. Of course this is a perfect cycle only if we rely solely on it until the green alternatives take over but nothing is perfect in this regard sadly.

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If they were landfilled, there could be possibly a benefit as many carbon sources landfilled turn into methane which has a potential higher short term heating potential.

Most of the ingredients used in biofuel (including those shown in the photograph) aren’t landfilled but reused for other purposes. In such case the net CO2 benefit would be negligible (it could be argued that it increases short term CO2 levels when burnt rather than reused).

The company also indicated that the principal (first) reason for the collaple was ‘The Barnawartha plant was formerly operated by Australian Renewable Fuels before it fell into voluntary administration in early 2016 and 30 local jobs were lost due to competitive oil prices at the time’. This graph shows the oil price collapse in 2015/16


I suspect that the company was working on information historical information and that from economists which thought oil would continue to trend north as a result of increased demand in Asia. I recall reading articles about 10 years ago indicating that a barrel of oil was going to hit USD200 soo there after. I even though about whether it was worth the effort to buy a fuel storage and bank a few 10s litres to hedge the expected fuel price rises. Lucky I didn’t take the punt.

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