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Daylight Saving. Friend or foe?


#41

See my main issue is that attitude is dependent on your lifestyle. My family all have jobs which necessitate them being up before 6am, so they tend to be in bed before 9/10pm. So daylight savings advantages people who can afford to sleep in while screwing those who can’t. Having said that I’d definitely be more open to it if it was all year round rather than just in summer, which makes 0 logical sense to me.


#42

I recall an news item of a few years ago when a group were interviewed about the attraction of DST. They were all in favour as it meant they could leave work a bit early and go out sailing in their yachts on Sydney harbour, they had mid-week regattas. See how DST enhances the simple pleasure of the proletariat as you can spend more time sitting on the lee side as movable ballast.

Leaving out the class-based snark for a moment, the point is that DST favours those who have some flexibility in their lives. For those who are tied to activities that are based on daylight like farming or outdoor trades it does little. For those who work under artificial light, have flexitime or are self-employed then it may be good.

The point about the way your longitude in respect of your time zone (which determines the time the sun rises and sets) is well made, happenstance can mean the idea is attractive or a waste of time.

As for the supposed benefit dues to power savings by enjoying more daylight and less electric light, this sounds reasonable in theory but has it ever been demonstrated in practice?


#43

While a case of 1 and seasonally transient, my solar array is designed to minimise my power bill. From installation in Nov through last Saturday on clear late afternoons (OK, this is Melbourne, but give me a break on it) my oven use varied from ‘free’ to ‘subsidised’. Now dinner prep time is past when the panels generate anything.

Lighting and entertainment systems, a similar profile.

There is no offsetting activity in the morning so in one sense there is evidence about how DST affects energy consumption in these days of solar. Batteries (in my case future batteries) will treat or mitigate this, but for now…


#44

Well, this subject certainly started the fingers typing for everyone.

I live in NSW and I LOVE DAYLIGHT SAVINGS.

Mainly because it allows us to:

  • come home in daylight (rather than winter with it being dark by 6pm)
  • coming home in daylight also gives people a sense of security, rather than making sure one walks always in the light of street lights.
  • entertain outside for dinner and do so in daylight, no mosquitoes to bother us till much later
  • saves electricity consumption as it is daylight until 8.30/9pm, no need to turn house lights on

Whether you like it or not, 50% are happy in summer and 50% are happy in winter for obvious reasons.

Have a great day everyone. Live. Laugh. Love. Be Kind Always.


#45

There are plenty of empirical and theoretical assessments accessible on line. Enough to choose a select few and argue for or against there being a benefit in reduced energy consumption. It appears we are changing faster than the data sets and meaningful analysis anyway? :thinking:

Key considerations in any proper evidenced based assessment might be:

  • Access to reliable before and after data, IE same households, same weather patterns etc, this year with DS last year without.
  • No impact from household generation, EG rooftop PV and batteries
  • No change in household lighting fixtures or type, EG no LED upgrades between test periods.
  • Demographic isolation of households by installed heating/cooling and occupancy.

Nothing is impossible?
It would seem very unlikely we would all arbitrarily accept alternate years with and without DS just for an experiment. Would we also stop solar PV and battery uptake, as well as LED lighting conversion. We would probably also need to stop adding any new loads, new houses etc to the grid.

Perhaps there is a way to harvest data through the smart meter network. However this is not 100% of households and is unlikely to be representative across any area?

Do you compare the average NSW or VIC usage with QLD? It is difficult to expect a meaningful result given the significant differences in demographics, climate and housing styles.

Anyone coming home in DS time from work in Sydney or Melb might stay out and play for an extra hour? Yes this might save burning a couple of 5-10W LED bulbs for an extra hour?

Many in Qld might come home from work in summer, turn the aircon on full, have a shower to dump 2kg of sticky BO and stay inside to avoid the evening insect swarms? With DS there will be many households with an hour extra air con power use. And for earlier risers more need for lighting in the morning.

Perhaps the easy answer is to not have DS imposed statewide or nationwide? Perhaps the answer is to give everyone in summer the option to start work one hour earlier if they choose? Optional voluntary Personal Day Light Saving or OPDLS for short. Rostered shift workers might need to be excepted.

There are real benefits in having 50% that choose to start early and the 50% who do not. Consider the spread of the peak hour over a longer number of hours. Less pressure on public transport, less need to expand the motorways so quickly, fewer crowds at the supermarket checkouts on the way home and perhaps fewer new supermarkets/shops. Even peak electrical demand might ease?

The capital savings would be massive, and so too the benefits in lifestyle. Finally a seat spare in the morning train from Penrith to Central!

This could turn OPDLS into a true friend? :partying_face:


#46

See I’m still confused here. Once again not accusing, I just don’t understand. If this is about it being light later, why have it only in summer when it’s already light later? Why not have it only in winter or just all year round?

For those of us who have to get up early for work, surely we’re disadvantaged because we’re getting up in the dark. And as someone with no air con it meant during the WA trial I suffered lots of lost sleep as I had to go to sleep in an hour earlier heat.


#47

@tpeter267 - simply, in winter it is way too cold to be outside entertaining. Another for DLS is as a working mother, it allows me to get in outdoor chores in the light also, as opposed to winter nothing gets done outside after 5pm. I used to get up to catch a train and a bus to the office rising at 4am. Same temperature from 4am to 6am - rising time makes no difference. Getting to the office at 7am meant I could go for a walk whilst it was still cool and not get hot n sweaty before work. I guess it doesn’t really matter whether you are a ‘pro’ or ‘anti’ daylight savings person, one will always find reasons to justify their believes and no one can ever say anything to change their minds, and I don’t believe they should. We are all entitled to have our own opinion without someone trying to say it is wrong. By no means does this last sentence reflect upon you at all, by the way, you have been quite polite and not bullied me because my opinion differs to yours. Thank you.


#48

Because in summer the light is also earlier as well as later. The whole window for activity in daylight is wider so you have the opportunity to move the working day one way or the other. In winter the window is narrower so you will go (more) into darkness if you move the working day either way.


#49

See the thing is what is a working day? It always seems to be people who are lucky enough to have 9-5 jobs. Although lots of people do, I’m not sure what the rest of us did to get forgotten. It just doesn’t do much to win me over on the topic.


#50

I beg to differ Mark-m. Your comment “Despite having dayblight savings, the six o’clock news on TV is still on at 6, prime time is not an hour later, and no one stays up an extra hour at night?” is incorrect.
Meals are cooked an hour later because who is going to start cooking dinner when the sun is blazing & it’s 33*C? Dinner is later & so going to sleep is later.
I have suffered a sleeping disorder because of DS. By the time I have adjusted to DS, then we switch back. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.
Then there are all the problems of missing medical appointments & flying timetables, as I live in NSW less than an hour from the QLD border. The border area is highly populated on both sides, so we should be given the same time zone.
I also disagree with you wanting just one National time zone, (as convenient as it might be), especially if it’s set at DST. In the heat of Summer, I’d prefer an extra cool hour in the morning than an extra hot hour in the afternoon.
And then there’s climate change, with the hottest Summers on record in recent years. Give us a break from DST!


#51

While your view is respected, that might be true in your house, but it is not true in my house nor is either a universal truth.

-> ‘We cook our meals an hour later…’

That would be so reasonable it could never happen. BTW, where would the demarcation be set, and why? Is that reasonable?


#52

See to me this highlights that different people have very different experiences. And that’s what I struggle with. Changing time zones every 6 months is an undeniable inconvenience, but it seems to only benefit part of the population whilst making things harder for the rest. Which makes that inconvenience seem not worth it to me.


#53

You have zeroed in on the issue. Those who benefit think it is as wonderful as those who do not benefit think it is terrible, and their ‘vote’ is that it is worth it to them. :wink:


#54

I think it’s a little more complex than just ‘do at least 51% of people benefit’ though. Because the actual changeover causes a large amount of disruption to almost everyone. So I feel like there needs to be some clear evidence that it overwhelmingly benefits society. If there was I wouldn’t mind living with the disruption here and there.


#55

Should we open a topic about statistician jokes? There is lots of clear, irrefutable evidence to be had. Which evidence do you prefer? :smiley:

but those in favour have willingly and eagerly accepted that disruption as a positive, as have those against been similarly inconvenienced.

As for myself, I could not care either way but enjoy the adjustment whereby the mornings and evenings are as light as they can be, on average, throughout the year. Could I adjust to permanent DST or AST? Sure.


#56

I’m not aware of this irrefutable evidence. Do you have some links handy please?


#57

It was intended as a satiric comment, especially ‘irrefutable’, since it is mostly opinion with a bit of fact interspersed on occasion, but since you asked, this article is on your side. This one is not. This has some pros and cons, while this is pro, and so it goes.


#58

Hardly surprising when there is so much variation in way of life, latitude, longitude, occupation, flexibility, ability to alter rhythms, the list is endless. Add to that the resentment felt by some towards their State Capital, Canberra, leaders in general or any change brought about by them, “those b------s are doing it to us again”, grumble, gnash, whine.

Herding cats would be much easier than coming to agreed criteria for evaluation and as for getting any consensus don’t waste the thought.

You could have a People’s Convention to Decide on Daylight Saving. It would be like the Constitutional Convention (ConCon) to decide on a replacement for monarchy except that delegates would be searched at the door for concealed weapons. An annual event televised live instead of state of origin. Pass the popcorn.


#59

Daylight Saving was discussed here. Among the issues:

For me, the most substantial impact of daylight saving is what I call “jet-lag with out the jet”, twice per year. I’ve also noticed that timepieces tend to malfunction when fiddled-with. Daylight saving forces me to fiddle. It’s an horologists’ conspiracy!


#60

Totally agree re ‘jet lag’ @Drop_Bear.
But have no ‘horologia’ problems at all.:slight_smile: