Abolish School Fees for Greater Equity & Public vs Private Funding

That seems why enough of the electorate thinks they are better managers as compared to the alternative to keep them in government :roll_eyes:

Creating an essentially uneducated electorate devoid of the ability to critically think is often a pollies nirvana.

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ALL government schools should be completely free of charge. This INCLUDES excursions, so pupils from poorer families are not discriminated against.
However, all NON-government schools should NOT be subsidised ONE CENT.
This is REALLY simple. If I choose a ‘public’ hospital, then my treatment is free. If I choose a private hospital, then I have to PAY.
If I choose ‘public’ transport then I pay a small contribution. If I choose private transport (eg my own car, a taxi, Uber etc) then I pay the full cost.
There should be NO difference with schools. If I choose a private provider, then I should have to PAY!
When I went to UNI it was FREE; there were NO “private” universities.
How about we reclaim “State Aid” for state schools and public universities, so that they are properly funded again. Frankly, the private sector can charge what it likes (with NO subsidies).

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I think you have nailed public education on the head…public transport could be replaced with public education/school. The contribution in public schooling includes for stationary, school supplies (art, music, PE) and non-classroom activities (excursions, after school sports, swimming lessons etc). Some oc these could be considered a want, rather than essential to good education. As wants, if the taxpayer funds these fully, then it is likely they will become more prevalent in schools.

I also went to university for two years before HECS came in. It was far from free pre-HECS. Student Union fees, course enrolment fees, books/text, stationary, field trips etc) which ran into the 1000s each year…absorbing much of the money earned in my causal job. University education has never been free in reality. Costs to a student may have been less between the Whitlam years (1970s) and 1990, but it was never free.

The states should be able to fund schools easily, but, with conflicting priorities created by the community, the state government coffers are stretched and some government services such as education, the funds are spread thinly. Ask any principal whether they need (a modest) more money to better deliver education or for essenrial school maintenance, and you will have your answer.

We, that’s all of us, don’t want to pay more taxes, but expect more government services. …something has to give.

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The simple answer is to abolish all government funding of private schools. The money lavished on private schools is utterly obscene. Dubly so with the wealthy elite schools. The argument of “choice” is a furphy. If it were valid then the government should subsidise my private car, giving me the “choice” of not using public transport. Other businesses have to stand or fall on their own; why should the government prop up ANY private enterprise?

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How important is it to recognise a large portion of our education needs are met through private schools?

Approx 40% of high school students and 30% of primary nationally attend private schools.

Governments often refer to this statistic as a reminder not to tamper with electoral wisdom. Missing from the stats is a breakout of how many of these are low fee paying community accessible (denominational most common) and high fee paying (targeted students).

On a slightly different level, while Australia does have national curriculum standards, the states effectively compete against each other for funding. The same with health, the Commonwealth having a toe in the water with both. It’s equal only when it’s not.

One snapshot.

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What is equitable? Parents who can afford a private school, with all the bells and whistles extra fees can pay for, pay more taxes and then get no government subsidy? Those parents would see that as inequitable. The first principle should be - a quality education for all pupils. That does not mean Olympic swimming pools, fancy music centres, lush sports fields, etc. Look to Finland’s example, the best in the world, some prestigious education body has suggested. I would think that good teaching is an absolute key to a quality education. That means attracting quality teachers. Currently, it is far more attractive to school leavers to be a highly paid lawyer, accountant, architect, etc. Get to the real core of the problem, I would think, before dishing out solutions.

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I agree, one shouldn’t think all private school have gold plated facilities. There are many independent schools which have facilities similar to (or even lesser than) local public school equivalents. Often the debate focuses on the limited number of ‘elite’, well resourced schools, which is not the norm and gives a false impression of the majority of independent schools.

It is also worth noting there are also select public schools in some states which also have similar facilities to the ‘elite’ private schools. These facilities are to attract gifted (high academic or sports achievers) to the school to allow them to excel. These facilities are provided by state government funds, the local communuty/business and/or P&C fundraising.

if all schools are to be treated equally through abolishing fees, then one could argue that select government schools should also be abolished.

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We have a state school in our shire that has a nationally recognised music program. There is also a respected private school on the other side of the shire that routinely recruits, or tries its best to recruit, music teachers from the state school. Grade 3 at the private school is $24,000 p.a. and more each year to year 12 at $28,000 domestic ($33,000 international).

I don’t know if they offer better salaries, better conditions, better students, a better hall, or only more prestige, but isn’t poaching a ramification of the public-private funding conundrum where it is often (but as mentioned not always) economically disparate situations between the two? One could presume based on the tuition the teachers at the private school might be getting paid closer to the lawyers, accountants, architects and so on, and that is good. Maybe they only get paid award rates? What about those in the state school waiting to be recruited and what sways those who go? I can only guess based on the comparative funds available and could be wrong or not.

Some might accept this is the ‘market’ at work, but

yet the private school receives its share of public funds as does the state school; does ‘quality’ have differing costs? Is it a relative concept?

abolished or modified into centres of excellence for the academic achievers (not the financially able), as well as some being centres for the most challenged.

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or d) acceded to lobbying…

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Public schools need good funding, especially those in disadvantaged areas for we can have a source of untapped brilliance within those cohorts that deserve the best.

Until I retired I was a public school teacher and I must agree with so many of your comments. I know people who sent their children to prestigious private schools even though they were public school teachers. They did it for the ‘connections’ their children would make and the status. When I used to say to them that they obviously felt their teaching was second class and did sending their children to private schools reinforce that notion they again referred to the connections.

Public schools take all children regardless of ability or disability. Private schools will, and do refuse to take some children as dealing with them is all too hard.

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Theres a book titled “Snakes in Suits”. Worth reading

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I’ve been to the live show, daily, for decades !! :wink:

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Me too, but not since leaving work. Interestingly the individual who recommended it to me, had so little insight, that she did not realise that she was one of the snakes. Ah well, I’d rather be who I was, than one of those.

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I think I’ve learned a whole new meaning of respect for the ones that live in the back yard and rafters. Definitely no empathy evident when they are out and about. Although their ability to move on when found out, only to boldly reappear where least expected might be another sign. Psychopathy must be more wide spread In the animal kingdom than we imagine.

On the core topic, the following rings so true:

Add to this the many challenges of encouraging and delivering equal education and opportunity in regional and more remote Australia. It does seem wasteful using the public purse to prop up a more exclusive education that delivers variable results.

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Which seems one of their big selling points to their ‘customers’. In theory any child whose parents are able and willing to pay from a few $1,000s to upward of $20,000 p.a. expects nothing but the best from Olympic pools to laboratories to libraries to overall students’ attentiveness and good behaviour, no bullying, and so on. I accept not all private schools are wealthy but hopefully a point is made on the disparities, not considering whether ‘the proper’ religious teachings have to be included from school to school.

Every student is theoretically there to learn and will be well behaved and attentive or off they might be sent, no refunds being applicable.

Without comment, that is part of the ‘discussion’ and why some see it as a raison d’etat to justify private education expenses, in addition to making ‘the right connections’ when one spends (invests as they see it) more.

Another argument that appears from time to time is whether all students (eg those who are combative, disinterested, inattentive, and disruptive to the majority) are worthy of or deserve an ‘equal’ education when they resist receiving one as currently delivered.

For clarity, I am in favour of defunding private schools. If parents want to pay full fare for them I have no problem with that, but a universal education even for the miscreants benefits all of society in one or another way so funding specialists who can affect the best outcomes for each student seems the most worthy goal for the community at large.

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In the ‘Seven up!’ Series, 7yo John Brisby had this to say about schools:

“I think it’s not a bad idea to pay for schools, because if we didn’t the schools would be so nasty and crowded.”

He went on to become a successful lawyer :wink:

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Not just if they are too hard to deal with. Private schools are allowed to refuse a child (or kick them out) for any reason. That could include behaviour, gender, “race”, poor grades, disability, religion, parents don’t get on with the Principal (or with other parents)…

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Selective entry is not unique.

Not likely as the parents sign an agreement with the school. Protections and legal assurances do come with the exchange of money - school fees. Although with many of the nations legal minds having relevant backgrounds the agreements will be well prepared.

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Private schools do accept children with disabilities and the trend is increasing, see…

https://isa.edu.au/about-independent-schools/about-independent-schools/students-with-disability/

There are also private schools which specialises in students with difficulties.

Why, because many parents want the same opportunities for their children and any other child.

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The community may consider private schools such as “City/town XYZ Grammar School” as one version of independent school. The more widely spread and typically faith based are not seen similarly as private. Although most of the second are in part funded through paying fees, the fees are only a minor contribution to the schools costs, and student acceptance is more universal.

It might serve the more financially able private schools to be co-grouped from time to time. There are substantial differences (Cost, facilities and …) between the two - from experience as a parent.

P.S. It might be apt for some to differentiate through overt marketing, although the students are certainly no different in aspiration, general abilities, personality and humanity than any other school student.

It seems a rather circular discussion?

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